Who believes in dinosaurs on Noah's Ark? Do you as theistic evolutionists believe that?

Really? But the way we came into sin, says something about who God is. Classical Christianity is just as concerned about who God is, as about who we are.

And that is part of the trouble. If I don’t take your words literally, about Dawkins being stumped, then the only other way to take them is that Dawkins is not stumped, which in fact is true, and was true even when you made your statement. When you made your statement, even if Dawkins had not made his statement (in 2006) about barking dogs, yet your statement still would not have been non-literally true, because in fact many people are not stumped, and most are only temporarily stumped. You need to change your approach, and not use this argument. As to whether Dawkins argument is a good one or not… that was not the issue.

Common Eddie, you’re not going to stump Dawkins. He’d twist you into a pretzel, in 30 seconds. Donald Trump would do the same. :smile: But I have to commend you for keeping up the self-confidence. But there is a huge difference between academic debate and media savvy.

There is much good in the classical christian tradition. But there has also been much bad. I grew up in such a tradition, and was taught that the anabaptists were “detestable” because of their belief in adult baptism, in free will, in their teaching that God “offered” the gift of salvation. The mainline reformers thus persecuted these other christians, almost imitating the attitudes of the roman catholics that they themselves had been persecuted by. In their eagerness to be pure, and to have pure theology, these mainline reformers began to lose sight of the doctrines of love and foregiveness, and aligned themselves with the state, becoming pawns of the state. In this case, the pacifism of some of these anabaptists was a driving fear/force that increased the antagonism. Today we are more tolerant of various beliefs. But traditional european christianity has not always been so tolerant, even though today it intolerantly castigates the so-called evangelical movements.

I know you want to be a conservative. But that is not my main concern. My main concern is to be a biblical christian, whether it leads to various conservative or liberal principles or actions. Conservatism and liberalism change their principles and actions from decade to decade, from century to century. They are not something you can hang your hat on.

@johnZ

At no point have I argued that everything said or done by people called “conservatives” has been right or good. Indeed, I called for a new conservatism, which leaves open the option of preserving all that was good in traditional Christianity, while not hanging on to various partisan excesses and various injustices and even theological errors which were sometimes intermingled with the truth.

As for being a Biblical Christian, just about every Protestant in the USA (except maybe some of the Episcopalians and the UCC people) would describe his or her Christianity as truly “Biblical.” So making “Biblical” the non-negotiable reference point gets one no nearer to clarity than making “conservative” the reference point. Indeed, in some respects, “conservative” positions, e.g., adherence to the Creeds, provide more clarity than Biblicism. A thousand Protestant sects in the USA are very “Biblical” in their belief in the book of Revelation, but their interpretations of Revelation wildly differ. On the other hand, the Orthodox, Catholics, Reformed, Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, etc. all agree on the Creeds. Over time and space, there is a broader base of agreement among Christians that the Creeds (especially the Apostles’ Creed) are reliable than that any particular interpretation of Revelation is reliable. And there is a broader base of agreement on the Trinity than there is on the interpretation of Genesis. If you are looking for a rock which can settle all disputes and bind all Christians together in one doctrine and practice, you will not find it in the Bible any more than you will find it in “conservative” positions that have been held over centuries by the majority of practicing Christians.

But I"m not pitting conservativism against Biblicism. I see conservatism as, at least in principle, the ally of Biblicism, since conservatism at its best represents the mind of the entire church, not just of some narrow sliver (sect or denomination) of it. It represents the ongoing consensus of Christians in action, living out the Christian life and thinking out the Christian teaching. It is therefore to be placed in dialogue with the Bible, not in opposition to it. We need the Bible, but it is a static record; and without a tradition to help interpret that static record, any sect, or any individual nut case, can read anything into the Bible and take anything out of it.

Admittedly, traditions can sometimes become too narrow and rigid, and this must be guarded against. But individual Biblical interpretation, sectarian interpretation, and even denominational interpretation, can be erratic, selective, unbalanced, and heretical. It can also become narrow and rigid. I would not call the Biblical interpretation of the JWs even-handed, balanced, etc. Even Luther and Calvin, who said “Scripture alone” has final authority, did not in practice deny the importance of harmonizing Scripture and the core of the earlier tradition. They had immense respect for Augustine, and disagreed with him only rarely, and with hesitation. They also had immense respect for the deposit of tradition generally. They denied that the Pope could make up new doctrines out of whole cloth, of course, and they felt that many of the teachings current in their day were falsehoods to be rejected; but they were not crude Bible-toting anti-traditionalists.

It is true that “tolerance” is greater today, but tolerance is a social rather than a religious virtue. Should Christians “tolerate” idolatry? Should Christians “tolerate” sin? Should Jews “tolerate” the view that their religion is largely false, having been superseded by Christianity? Should Muslims in Saudi Arabia “tolerate” the consumption of alcohol by Christians there? Historically, “toleration” and liberalism have gone hand-in-hand. Religious belief has become more liberal in the very periods when toleration was most practiced. The intention of “toleration” may be originally only political or social – to allow people of different beliefs to get along – and it is hard to oppose “toleration” in that sense in the modern world, given that pluralism is an established fact. But in the age before pluralism was a reality, and most lands were religiously homogeneous or nearly so, “toleration” was likely to appear to the true religious believer as a shocking indifference to religious truth. That is why the Church of Rome was not “tolerant” of Luther, and why Luther and Calvin were not “tolerant” of Anabaptists, and why Luther was not “tolerant” of Jews, etc.

I’m not sure that even you are advocating that the Church should have been more “tolerant” of Pelagianism, Nestorianism, Monophysitism, Manichaeism, Marcionism, Gnosticism. Are you saying that if you had been the dictator of the earth in the era of these heresies, you would have forced the orthodox Church to leave these heresies alone, and would have allowed them full access to the public square to attempt to lure people away from the Nicene Creed, and from orthodox faith generally? And that if you were the Holy Roman Emperor in the Middle Ages, you would have guaranteed the religious rights of the Cathars of southern France and refused to launch any crusade against them?

I am not arguing that the church should be tolerant in what it teaches, allowing every mistaken doctrine to be taught. No. But on the other hand, I am arguing that one cannot force people into faith, nor should a church be servant to the state, nor should it be persecuting other christians under the slimmest of pretexts. In addition, while yes the apostles creed is a unifying doctrine for many if not all christian churches and denominations, yet christians ought not to be persecuting others for simply stating in different terms the concept of God’s grace, his mercy, his demand for our obedience and for our choice to serve him. Predestination vs free will ought not in my opinion to be more than an expression of emphasis, and should not be a point of dissension and disharmony.

@johnZ

I’ve already granted your point about Dawkins, that he would not now be tongue-tied by my defense. But the first time he heard such a defense, he would have to scramble, because he would not have been expecting it. In any case, your overfocus on Dawkins misses the bigger point. The bigger point is that if one concedes to atheist critics of Christianity that many of the stories in Genesis were not meant to be read as history, one takes away many of their favorite subjects of argumentation. And yes, I admit they can try to preserve the argument by such retorts as you have given (quoting Dawkins). But since such retorts move the discussion to a new question – can one maintain a non-literal reading of the Garden story while accepting Jesus as Savior? – they transmute the debate into a new debate, and in my view a better one.

Compare:

“I am going to use 100 scientific arguments to demolish your belief in a historical global Flood.”
“But I don’t believe in a historical global Flood. Next objection, please.”

With:

“You believe there was no historical serpent or flaming cherubim, but you still believe Jesus is your Savior, and that is inconsistent.”
“It’s not inconsistent at all, and here is why …”

The first exchange has no useful issue, because Dawkins (in my case, anyway) would be saying that I believe what I do not believe. Dawkins would have my position wrong.

The second exchange could have a useful issue, because it could lead to a deeper and clearer understanding of what “the Fall” means, how Jesus undoes “the Fall”, etc.

The first exchange leads only to a clarification of who is asserting what. The second exchange leads to an investigation of the substance of Christian doctrine. The second exchange is therefore at least potentially useful. Forcing atheists into the second kind of exchange is therefore productive. The public might learn something about Christian faith by watching a believer and an atheist thrash that exchange out.

I am not saying that you should follow me in denying the historicity of the Garden story. Believe what you must. But I do deny the historicity of the Garden story, and I find that the denial has served me well on many private occasions, producing chagrin in religious unbelievers.

However, do not mistake me as saying that we should make arguments purely for tactical purposes. If I really did believe the Garden story was history, I wouldn’t pretend that I thought it myth, merely to score a debating point against atheists. I’m merely noting that my belief – based on textual rather than tactical reasons – has the added “fringe benefit” of sometimes throwing opponents of Christianity off their game. In the end, however, I would say that tactical considerations such as that are important only for political purposes, and have nothing to do with the truth of the matter at hand.

On your first point, I can’t follow what you are saying, because you are too general. But I don’t see any reason in principle why the Garden story is the only story that anyone could possibly have told consistent with the nature of God and of the human state.

@johnZ

I agree with much of what you say in this paragraph. However, I am a modern person who has lived in the modern world and therefore have the benefit of hindsight regarding the virtues as well as the weaknesses of “toleration.” Christians of past ages did not have that hindsight, and “toleration” struck them as recipe not only for religious but for social anarchy. Within their intellectual conception of the relationships between “truth”, “religion”, and “social order”, their intolerance was a rational policy. Indeed, “toleration” did not come into being because a few philosophers preached its virtues, and persuaded everyone of them. “Toleration” won out for political and social reasons. When it became apparent that in certain European countries, pluralism was there to stay (e.g., Netherlands, France, England), it was then possible for philosophers (Locke, etc.) to trumpet the virtues of pluralism. But if Locke had written in Calvin’s Geneva rather than post-Restoration England, he would have been hounded out of town, or burnt at the stake for his advocacy of pluralism. It was not because Christians became more reasonable and tolerant that they allowed pluralism to be born; it was because the Christian authorities in the various parts of Europe (Catholic, Reformed, Lutheran, etc.) could not achieve monopolistic power that the secular rulers made a virtue of necessity, and philosophies justifying pluralism were written and allowed to be published. In those parts of Europe where one group still enjoyed monopoly power, theoretical justifications of toleration were somewhat delayed in their appearance. Early modern Spain, for example, is not noted for its resounding declarations of the right of religious freedom.

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When you do this, you merely assume you can shift to a different objection. But realistically, the question may not at all be about what you believe, but what the bible says. And if he clearly understands these passages to say something, when you deny what they say to him, then there is not much point in another objection, because as far as he is concerned, you have simply rejected the authority of scripture. (which he is okay with). Now you are both in the same camp, ie. you don’t accept scripture, and he doesn’t accept scripture, and you both accept evolution. You have not really testified to Christ, nor demonstrated a need for Christ, nor can you argue that scripture identifies Christ as the son of God who was born a man, died and rose again, since he will ask why you believe such nonsense from a nonsensical book.

Of course, you can discuss this, but you have conceded that some parts of scripture, shall we say the inconvenient parts, might be given some allegorical or symbolical meaning, and now the onus is on you to prove that the resurrection was not merely symbolic. Frankly, to logically explain that we need redemption from the sin and evil which God created, or from a fall that did not happen, is a hard thing to do. Try to explain why humans are alienated from God, from an evolutionary perspective.

@johnZ

I am surprised that you keep making these objections to me, since you already know that most of them don’t apply to my position, but to the position of various skeptics or religious liberals.

You know perfectly well that I don’t think that reading Genesis non-historically is “rejecting the authority of Scripture.” It is possible to read the Garden story and regard it as authoritative in what it teaches without regarding it as a photojournalistic account of what happened in the past. I’ve already made very clear the distinction between what a text says and what a text teaches. If Dawkins’s crude, positivist scientific understanding is not capable of grasping such a distinction, I’m not going to lose any sleep over it. Scientists without much depth in philosophical, theological, literary, cultural etc. matters are very common, and it’s not unexpected to me that a British atheist scientist would be a Philistine in literary or religious matters.

There is no reason why my interpretation of the Garden or Flood stories should “testify to Christ.” The stories aren’t about Christ. If we were discussing the Gospels it would be different. Even if we were discussing the story of Abraham and Isaac it would be different. It could be argued that the latter story foreshadowed and anticipated the story of Christ. When I read the Bible, my goal is to understand the Bible not to “testify to Christ.” Those parts of the Bible that obviously or plausibly relate to Christ, I will of course relate to Christ. But not everything in the Bible is about Christ. That is where Calvin is superior to Luther as an Old Testament interpreter; Luther is Christ-crazy and sees Christ in every little corner; Calvin is more guarded, more careful to interpret the OT in context; he doesn’t constantly back-read Jesus into everything.

Why should I have to prove that the Resurrection is “not merely symbolic”? I already explained, in part of my post which you entirely ignored in your answer, that a historical Jesus not logically incompatible with a “mythical” Fall story. It doesn’t follow that if the Garden story is not history, the Gospel stories are not history. If someone wants to show that the Gospel stories aren’t history, he will need a separate argument. If Dawkins ever buttonholes me and gives an argument that the Gospels aren’t history, I’ll deal with such arguments then. But exegesis of the Garden story doesn’t come into that discussion at all.

Further, as you should know by now, it is not to deal with “inconvenient parts” of Scripture that I come up with non-historical interpretations. There are perfectly good literary reasons for treating the Garden story as non-historical.

Finally, where did I ever claim that “an evolutionary perspective” can explain “why humans are alienated from God”? Do you think you are talking to Francis Collins, Ken Miller, or Kathryn Applegate here? Ask them that question. I’ve made no such claim. In fact, I think the question of our alienation from God is orthogonal to the truth or falsehood of evolution (and I hope you remember that by evolution I don’t mean Darwinian evolution, but only the generic idea of common descent from simpler forms); regardless of how God made us (by direct creation or through an evolutionary process), the Christian claim is that after our creation we became alienated from God, necessitating a means of restoration – the Incarnation, Crucifixion, Redemption, etc. I don’t see why one needs to settle the question of common descent before addressing that claim.

It seems to me that you find the idea of evolution threatening to your Christian faith. I don’t. I find certain formulations of how evolution works to be potentially in conflict with certain Christian teachings; but the mere fact of evolution, supposing it to be a fact, doesn’t threaten anything that I believe at all. I don’t claim, of course, that the Bible teaches evolution – it certainly does not. The idea of evolution was outside of the intellectual horizon of the Biblical writers. But if it turned out that evolution were an irrefutable fact, it would make no difference at all either to my Biblical interpretation or my theology. It would involve nothing more than filling out the “how” of God’s creation of living things. But the “how” is unimportant, as long as it is understood throughout that God plans the results and insures that they are carried out, leaving nothing to chance.

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(Peanut gallery comment: One could actually say truthfully that you “testify to Christ” better by investigating, accepting and representing the scientific data honestly and without fear than you would by doggedly adhering to a particular interpretation of Genesis in the face of all facts to the contrary.)

@AMWolfe

I hope that the “you” in your comment was generic, and not addressed to me! I am certainly not guilty of “doggedly adhering to a particular interpretation of Genesis in the face of all facts to the contrary.”

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Yes, Eddie, in context, the second “you” here certainly does not refer to you personally. :slight_smile: Quite the opposite. The first “you” does.

(Since you seem to love grammatical precision and stuff: I used the indicative in the first and the conditional in the second. :slight_smile: )

Sure, I know you have said this. But your own thinking or interpretation does not eliminate the fact that for many/most people, rejecting what is a plain and obvious understanding, will be rejecting the authority of scripture. Such a supposed intellectual as Dawkins sees this problem, even if you do not. Just because it is possible for some to read it as authoritative without it being a historical account, does not mean it is possible for everyone to do this. Some people may regard “Ali Babba and the Forty Thieves” or “Sleeping Beauty” as an authoritative fairy tale, but so what? It fails the test of authority on objective grounds. I agree that what a text says and what it teaches may be different in some way, and often is. But that generalization by itself, does not solve the problem in this specific case. As I have often said before, the teaching of a parable depends on its ability to convey truth, which depends on its believability relative to the significance and import of what it is attempting to teach.

A genesis story that is completely false (or impossible) in what it is saying, loses credibility in what it is trying to teach. For example, a story that says that a curse was placed on earth because of man’s disobedience, which we assume it is attempting to teach, makes no sense in the context of an earth in which the “curse” existed long before man was created. So the credibility of the teaching is lost. This credibility is lost no matter what language it is spoken in, and regardless of nuances about the meanings of “earth”, “day”, “dust” etc.

Perhaps you think the stories are not about christ because of your interpretation of the lack of factuality in these stories. But one of the things these stories have always been assumed to teach, is that the promise of the Messiah already began at the time of man’s fall into sin. This is understood in the promise of the struggle between the serpent and the seed of Eve, and the eventual victory of Eve’s “seed”, as explained in Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.

Genesis 3:15 (God says to the serpent) And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush[b] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

But, if God did not really say this, then how are we to understand that this enmity really exists, or that the serpent will really be crushed? It would be like trying to obtain a teaching from a parable, when believing that Jesus never told the parable at all. It loses its objective truth, and becomes only a subjective truth, true only because we want it to be true.

I agree with half of what you say here, that God plans and insures the results, leaving nothing to chance. I do think the how is important, but God is not limited to only one method, yes. On the other hand, there is still a problem with credibility, and perpescuity, as well as an understanding of good and evil.

> Peanut gallery comment: One could actually say truthfully that you “testify to Christ” better by investigating, accepting and representing the scientific data honestly and without fear than you would by doggedly adhering to a particular interpretation of Genesis in the face of all facts to the contrary.

I agree with this entirely. However, not all facts are to the contrary. Again, you should read the 101 objections to old age (creation.com) to realize that not all facts are to the contrary. And these are just the objections to evolutionary timelines, and don’t really include the objections to evolution specifically, of which there are many more objections.

We’re just going to have to agree to disagree, my friend :slight_smile:

Have a nice day!

We don’t have to agree to disagree, and we don’t have to disagree either; it is something we choose to do.

Fair enough! And I do so happily in this case. Life is short, and God has only given me so much time and energy to steward. Out of submission to Him, I choose to invest this time elsewhere.

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@johnZ

I would disagree with your interpretation of Genesis 3:15, and probably with many other of your Old Testament interpretations. But we cannot carry this discussion further without getting into the subject of “New Testament use of Old Testament passages” – which is a massive subject in its own right, and takes us far away from dinosaurs on Noah’s Ark.

I grant that Dawkins will see a non-historical reading of Genesis differently from the way that I do. But Dawkins is not a trained Biblical scholar, or a trained religion scholar (as is evident from the incompetence of his statements on these subjects, an incompetence that even Michael Ruse, his atheist ally, is embarrassed by), so I’m not really worried about any objections Dawkins might have to my view.

The purpose of Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves is nothing other than entertainment. The ancient storytellers who told about the magical door and “Open Sesame”, about giant birds that could carry off elephants, etc., knew perfectly well that they were telling tall tales for the purposes of delighting an audience. The case is quite different for many ancient Hindu, Greek, Persian, Egyptian and other myths about origins. The ancients told serious truth through myths, and did not think they were lying or fibbing when they did so. The Garden story has many of the standard features of the myths. But it is no more “false” for that reason than any other myth is “false.” How the story was used centuries later by other writers, who in some cases may have lost the key to the myth, is an entirely different question. The meaning of the story in context is separate from the later history of interpretation of the story, and the two fall under different provinces of theological investigation.

The enmity between human people and serpent does not need any “authority” to be believed; it is observed! Serpents do bite people, and people, when they see a poisonous serpent, do pick up a heavy object and smash its head. The story gives the origin of enmity, but the facts need no “authority” to be believed.

As for parable, if you believe (as you seem to) that the Bible is from God, then if a particular “parable” is in the Old Testament, that parable is from God. So why would you have any more trouble believing an Old Testament “parable” from God than a New Testament “parable” from Jesus? Do you need a flashing neon sign that says: “Warning: Parable!” before you are willing to interpret a passage as such? The ancient reader, being much more used to parables, myths, allegories, fables, etc. would not have needed the warnings that modern people, raised in scientific, technological culture (where everything is taken literally) need. For a modern person, the “default” value of any past tense narrative is “history”, and a warning must be affixed if anything different is meant. The ancient person, used to a different method of teaching, did not need such warnings, but developed facility is distinguishing between different genres and types of story. Approaching the Bible with a mindset shaped by the Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution, positivism, pragmatism, etc. is not sensible – but that is what both modern angry atheists and literalist-inerrantists do.

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Certainly serpents can bite people and people smash its head, but the origin of this is not given by a story which is not true in the first place. In other words, if the serpent did not talk to Eve and convince her to disobey God, then this is obviously not the origin of the enmity between a merely physical snake and a physical person. And, then it is also not the origin of the animosity between man and Satan. It cannot be the justification then for saying that we are tempted by Satan, nor for saying that man disobeyed God.

I disagree. All options are open. Most modern people fully recognize that most stories that they run across are not history, and that most in fact are complete fiction. There have never been so many fictional non-history stories as we have today in our bookstores, libraries, and movies.

Sigh … unless, @johnZ, the story of the Snake as Satan is to be an ALLEGORY of the concept that Satan tempts humankind.

George