Who believes in dinosaurs on Noah's Ark? Do you as theistic evolutionists believe that?

Sorry if I appeared to withdraw… of course, I do not claim to be an expert on bacteria in the salt or on C14 found in materials thought to be more than 50,000 yrs old. But on the other hand, I did not find your arguments convincing, right? As I recall, you kept insisting that these things must be replicated by others, but in fact, that was not really the argument made by the papers you quoted; rather they surmised that possibly this or likely that, but in fact the original research already had dealt with these arguments. So while you are right that more experiments or more cases of survival bacteria in salt inclusions would bolster the case, yet the original discoveries have not been disqualified. In a similar way, the cases of dna, collagen, hemoglobin and other tissue from within dinosaur bones appear to be increasing, not decreasing, which continues to make the belief in 65 my fossil tissue more and more unbelievable.

C14 could be found in material more than 50,000 yrs old - everyone knows that, even if the specificity of age dating becomes less and less accurate. But, it should not be detectable at all by the gc machine if the material is more than 100,000 yrs old, according to the basics of detection and C14 decay rates, and the dating theory for this period of time.

In addition, questions are raised, when other materials are dated as millions or billions of years old by other methods, when in fact the volcanic rock is known to be less than 100 years old. It is easy to say that methods corroborate each other for “old” samples, when we cannot really prove how old they are, while they do not work on new rock, and give dates well outside of the normal error range, instead of giving an age of zero.

So… if you had a choice of killing BY FLOOD all the horses in the world… except for 2 that you sent to the Ark… OR
just killing most of humanity WITHOUT A FLOOD … you would go with the Flood?

Totally unlikely…

@johnZ

Thank you for the courtesy but please, no need to apologize. I understand how these conversations go and the other demands we all have for our time. All exchanges come to an end sooner or later :slight_smile:

The specific two examples I mentioned though, did come to a stop at a point that is not how you were recollecting it.

On the Lazarus bacteria, we had agreed (or so it seemed) that it cannot be used to date anything, and thus the claim #2 at creation.com was incorrect because they were using the “age” of the bacteria to make claims about the age of the salt. Now it seems like there’s a new point that “bacteria could not live that long” but I suspect that a reference supporting that is not immediately forthcoming.

On the mysterious presence of C14 in old samples (and sure, we can say 100,000 years to be far from the limits of the method), my point was that the instrument should be measuring a value of zero (no C14) and that thus any type of noise or interference would make it seem like a non-zero value and yield the “surprise” of “finding” C14 where there should be none. My request was for a publication showing that C14 was found in such old samples even after making sure that it was a statistically significant measurement (i.e., using technical replicates and appropriate models for background noise and interference).

> The Bible says nothing about lions being “yearlings.” That is an invention of your own apologetic.
No matter what you say about how these animals survive, it will be an “invention”, if the bible does not explicitly state it. But this does not make any significant point in this discussion. The main point is whether your explanation is reasonable and does not contradict the message and meaning. Otherwise, we are simply reduced to saying that “the bible said it, so it must have happened somehow, even though we do not know how, whether miraculous or naturally”, which seemed to be something you wanted to avoid.

> Eddie:
> I wouldn’t waste time trying to harmonize the two genealogies, because to me it isn’t the slightest bit important which is correct, or even if either one is correct; whereas you, I suspect, would have to try to harmonize them
Good for you that you wouldn’t waste time harmonizing the geneologies. The harmonization would not be for you, but for those who would claim an inaccuracy which reduced the overall authority of scripture. To you it is just an inaccuracy; to others it is positive proof that scripture is not God-inspired, but merely an invention of man. It is not whether I would allow an error, but whether unbelievers allow the error as insignificant to the unreliability of scripture. So from that perspective, it certainly is not a waste of time to explain or harmonize the geneologies, if nothing else than to remove a barrier to faith.

> Eddie:
> And Dawkins has no comeback.
But you are wrong, because his comeback is that christians are idiots to believe in a scripture which talks of a global flood. If there truly was a global flood that Dawkins et al could not deny, he would not have this comeback. If you deny the global flood, his question would be, if you know the flood is a lie, or a tall tale, why do you believe the other things scripture talks about, like sodom and gomorrah being destroyed, or a virgin birth, or the resurrection of Lazarus, or Jesus feeding 5000 and 4000 people, or ascending into heaven?

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@johnZ

You are right; I would not claim that the inaccuracy in the genealogies reduced the authority of Scripture. But the people I have read who spend time trying to harmonize the genealogies do not seem to be doing it merely for apologetic purposes, i.e., to prevent doubt arising about the authority of Scripture. They appear to personally believe that not a single iota in either genealogy is wrong and that both genealogies are correct and without error, and that the discrepancies are only apparent, and that a little thought, maybe a little research on the time period, etc. will eventually remove the discrepancies. I would disagree. I have seen just about every variation on how to reconcile the genealogies, and they all smell like the proverbial something rotten in Denmark; all seem like ad hoc special pleading to “rescue” the text from the charge of falsehood. At most only one of the genealogies could be correct, and I doubt that either one is; further, I doubt that either one was even intended to be the product of genealogical research. And that’s exactly how I think about the Flood story, which is why I made a comparison between the two.

Nobody’s faith should rest on the accuracy of the genealogies of Jesus, and nobody’s faith should rest on the historicity of the Flood story. If I meet someone whose faith does rest on those things, I make an assessment before speaking to the person. I ask myself: “Is this person a simple believer, a good person, but one not much given to reasoning, a person for whom challenging the literalness of these stories might harm his or her faith?” And if the answer in my mind is “Yes”, then I change the topic to the weather or sports; I’m not in the business of using my scholarly knowledge to pass on “enlightenment” that will destroy simple people’s faith. But I also ask myself: "Is this person a swaggering amateur theologian, or even professional theologian, who is putting his chin out, and saying “I double dare ya,” declaring that he can prove the Flood happened, or prove that there are no contradictions in the genealogy of Jesus? If the answer to that in my mind is “Yes,” then I will dismantle this person’s certainties, in an attempt to leave him in a state of intellectual crisis, not about faith, but about his particular literalist-historical hermeneutic; he needs to come to see that his Biblical hermeneutic is shallow and he needs to think more deeply about what the Bible is, and what Christianity is; and if my intervention causes him to lose his faith, well, then his faith was never worth having in the first place. He should have based it on the core affirmations of Christian faith, not on mechanical trivia.

You have not correctly assessed what Dawkins’s reaction to me would be. He would be perplexed, unsure how to respond, because he would expect that I would defend a literal global Flood. All his arguments at the ready would thus be useless, because I had immediately ceded his point. Now he would have to figure out where I was coming from, and that would knock him off his game. His tactics work best against literalists; they roll off the back of non-literalists like water off a duck. Instead of spouting his usual “shpiel” he would have to converse with me, find out what I mean and what I think. With Ken Ham, he doesn’t have to do that. He knows exactly what Ham believes, and knows exactly what weapons to deploy to show that Ham’s position is unsustainable. In my case, he’d be tongue-tied and stammering and flustered. Literalists are actually the greatest Christmas gift New Atheists could possibly have. A hunter loves it when the deer or moose walks out into the clearing and stands in his sights. But when what he thought was a deer turns out to be an armadillo, he isn’t sure what to do.

As long as there are literalists, there will be militant, anti-Biblical atheists; and as long as there are militant, anti-Christian atheists, there will be literalists. The two feed off each other. But their battles mislead the public about what is important in religion.

As for your final question, I think that the right position for a traditional Christian to take is that Scripture is true “in all that it teaches”; the problem is that we do not agree on what it “teaches”. You think it “teaches” that there was a global Flood in 2340 B.C. I think it “teaches” no such thing, but offers a moral tale which makes use of standard ANE legendary and mythical motifs and puts them into the context of Israelite religion. Therefore, even if there was never even a local Flood, let alone a global one, I don’t think Genesis has “taught” anything that is false. There might well have been a local Flood in the ANE at one time, and there might even have been a global Flood thousands or millions of years earlier than the Biblical genealogies indicate. But the historicity of the Flood is incidental to the meaning of the story. That is not the case in all Biblical stories. So each one has to be taken on a case-by-case basis. The question must always be, not “What does this story say?” but “What does this story teach?” It is characteristic of literalism to make the two answers the same in almost every instance; non-literalists more often see the two answers as different.

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@Eddie, I’ve read a lot of your writing, and this is the best thing I’ve ever read that you’ve written.

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@BradKramer

Thanks, Brad. (Of course, it could be a left-handed compliment – :smile: – but thanks.)

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Eddie,
I agree with Brad. It is an excellent piece of writing. And with me, it is a left-handed compliment. :grinning: Have a happy and healthy 2016.

@Patrick

Happy 2016 to you, too, Patrick.

@BradKramer,

I concur!

Woudn’t it be great if there was a way to nominate superb posts (or portions thereof) for permanent storage in an Archive of Notable Comments/Thoughts?

Hmmm… didn’t someone propose such a marvelous convenience?

George Brooks

@Eddie, @Patrick, and @gbrooks9: In 2016 I’m considering the possibility of regularly running excellent posts from the Forum on our blogs. In fact, the first of which will appear next week. Don’t worry, it’s not written by one of you. If that was the case, I’d inform you ahead of time. Although technically, I don’t need to do that, since you’re posting publicly at BioLogos. But I’m a nice guy!

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Great idea. The Richard Dawkins site, Jerry Coyne, and Freedom From Religion Foundation sites are doing the same. Some of Eddie’s posts are excellent to include.

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First, your distinction between literalists and non-literalists is a false one. I will say no more about that.

Second, any story can only teach something by what it says. If I tell you that you must climb every mountain, when clearly there are no mountains, and no such thing as a mountain, then my statement will teach nothing, because what it says is impossible, and therefore stupid and absurd. The teaching only makes sense because there actually are mountains, so we understand what mountains are, and we know what climbing is, and only then can we apply a metaphorical meaning to “climbing mountains”. So in order to understand the metaphorical meaning, one must first understand the words themselves.

@BradKramer

I think it’s the perfect way to LEVERAGE insights across the entire BioLogos environment!

Awesome! Otherwise, it would be a shame to have them disappear into the digital abyss …

You might be right, he is not as bright as many people think he is. But in reality, he could ask, why do you believe in a scripture that tells such tall tales? If you do not believe that man caused the fall into sin, why do you believe the rest of scripture, which teaches that Jesus redeems us from a sin that we did not fall into. Why do you believe in a God who did not create the world, since it clearly created itself. And many such responses. He might be temporarily stumped, as he has been by creationists as well, but it would give him fuel even to counter the creationists, by saying that even christians don’t believe in the flood or young earth, why do the stupid creationists believe in such things? And then pit them against each other in order to serve his own personal agenda, which does not require the sort of consistency that he demands of others.

@johnZ

Well, after close to 50 years of debating with literalists, I think I know a thing or two about their positions, but there is no point in our wrangling about that.

As for your final statement, it proves nothing. We can understand what the word “mountain” in “Mount Olympus” refers to, without believing that the Mt. Olympus of Greek mythology (which is not the physical Mt. Olympus existing in Greece) exists or ever existed. Similarly, we can understand the meaning of a story of a universal Flood without supposing that a universal Flood ever happened.

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@Patrick

Thanks for the kind word, Patrick, and for all your “likes.” It says something good about you that you can give a “like” to a post even when you disagree strongly with the conclusion of the post. It shows a certain objectivity about the quality of an argument. My hat is off to you.

If only those responsible for hiring people for academic jobs, awarding research grants, etc., would practice that kind of objectivity, giving jobs to the best people and the best proposals, regardless of whether they agreed with those people or those proposals! But in practice, in most of the Humanities and Social Sciences, leftists, liberals, feminists, etc. give jobs and grants almost exclusively to other leftists, liberals, and feminists, even when right-wing, conservative, or anti-feminist scholars are more talented and qualified. Not the quality of the work, but the ideology of the person or at least the apparent ideological slant of the research, is the biggest factor in almost all cases. (If I were wrong, the percentage of “left” and “right” professors of religion, philosophy, literary theory, sociology, political science, etc. would be approximately the same as that of the percentage of “left” and “right” folks in the general US population, but that is not the case. In the universities, the left is represented vastly out of proportion in relation to the general population. And of course it becomes a self-augmenting trend; once more than 50% of the voting faculty doing the hiring or granting are of one ideology, they can maintain or even increase their influence over curriculum and research at will, simply by the weight of numbers. “The university needs more people who think like we do” – is pretty much the Arts professors’ hiring and research grant policy.)

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Richard Dawkins is an evolutionist and Oxford University professor who is one of the most strident antitheists around. Some churchians think they can appease him by compromising the Bible with evolution. But what does Dawkins think of this?

In his TV diatribe against theistic religion called The root of all evil? (broadcast on Channel 4, 16 January 2006), he said:

Oh but of course the story of Adam and Eve was only ever symbolic, wasn’t it? Symbolic?! So Jesus had himself tortured and executed for a symbolic sin by a non-existent individual? Nobody not brought up in the faith could reach any verdict other than barking mad!’
Elsewhere in The root of all evil?, he said the following after a discussion about homosexual behaviour with the Bishop of Oxford, Richard Harries, who has joined the antitheist Dawkins in opposing creation teaching in British schools. Harries, a liberal who also told Dawkins that he rejects the virginal conception of Christ, admitted that the OT and NT teaching was clearly that homosexual behaviour is wrong, but then went on to argue that we needed to reinterpret these texts based on modern scientific findings of ‘a significant percentage of people are predominantly attracted to members of their own sex.’ etc. (probably, like his fellow liberal (retired) bishop John Shelby Spong, relying on the discredited gall wasp specialist Alfred Kinsey). Again, he should just say that he doesn’t believe the texts, rather than dishonestly claim he is reinterpreting them to mean the opposite of what they say!

Dawkins responded to the camera, showing that Harries’ appeasement results only in contempt:

‘The moderates’ [liberals’] position seems to me to be fence-sitting. They half-believe in the Bible but how do they decide which parts to believe literally and which parts are just allegorical?’
Presumably here he means, ‘which parts of the Bible’s historical narrative are to be taken as historical narrative and which parts are to be explained away as allegorical’ — see Should Genesis be taken literally? Then he gets it right:

‘It seems to me an odd proposition that we should adhere to some parts of the Bible story but not to others. After all, when it comes to important moral questions, by what standards do we cherry-pick the Bible? Why bother with the Bible at all if we have the ability to pick and choose from it, what is right and what is wrong?’

The above is taken from creation.com, showing that not only is your guess about Dwkins response just a guess, but it is a wrong guess, since he has already responded to that scenario. Sarfati in “The Greatest Show on Earth” has also highlighted the same response of Dawkins, not at all what you think it might be, Eddie.

@johnZ

You are taking my words too literally. I was merely using Dawkins as an example. My point was that the first time anyone like Dawkins encountered someone like myself, he would be tongue-tied and stammering, because the Dawkins sort of person initially assumes that “Christianity” means “Bible-thumping literalism.” Of course, eventually, having encountered a response like mine, Dawkins or any other atheist would acquire enough intelligence to realize that not all Christians were literalists, and would then try to dream up a new reply to me. And doubtless they would all say something like what you have quoted.

But now, are you asking me to accept Dawkins’s argument as a good one? I can crush Dawkins’s answer in an instant.

Jesus is there to deal with the “state of sin” that we are in. How the “state of sin” came about is not the essential thing; the fact is the essential thing. If the Garden story is a mythical explanation (where “myth” refers to a genre, and does not carry the vulgar modern meaning of “falsehood”) for how we came to be in the “state of sin”, then the events of the Garden story don’t have to have happened as described. There might be a thousand ways that we came into the state we are in, just as there might be a thousand ways someone might end up stranded on a desert island without food or water. (Plane crash, helicopter crash, beached boat, floating a thousand miles on a piece of driftwood, left there deliberately by an enemy who wants my wife and my home…) All the person stranded on the desert island cares about is getting food, getting water, and getting home. How he came to be there is a pointless question, from the point of view of what he needs to get out of there. He might even have amnesia and not remember how he got there; but he would need food, water, and transportation off the island all the same. Similarly, if my “being in the state of sin” is something that will condemn me to eternal torture, and Jesus can get me out of the state of sin – or to be more precise, can get me off from the punishment for being in the state of sin – then Jesus’s salvific actions are going to be precious to me. I won’t care which of 50 or 100 conceivable origin myths that can explain the origin of the “state of sin” is the historically correct one; all I will care about is ignoring the flaming pit. (Of course, I’m using “I” generically here.)

The take-home teaching of Genesis 2-3 is that human beings are alienated from God (serpents and magic fruits etc. are just the window-dressing of the tale), and that the result is death; the solution to death is eternal life, and that is offered by Jesus. The person who believes that the Garden story contains fabulous elements included for pedagogical purposes is every bit as much a Christian as the person who thinks the story happened exactly as told, if he believes that Jesus is the way out of the state of alienation and death.

The problem with Dawkins is that his conception of religion is childish; it is only to be expected that he would offer childish arguments.

As for what liberal theologians like Spong, etc. argue, you know already that I am not in agreement with those liberal theologians. Spong not only does not believe that the Garden story is historical; he (last I heard) doesn’t take “sin” seriously at all. So he throws out the baby with the bathwater. I throw out the bathwater, but keep the baby. That’s why I’m a not a liberal, but a conservative. But some Americans (and some non-Americans influenced by the American Bible Belt) have trouble conceiving that “conservative” could mean anything other than “Bible-thumping literalist.”

Precisely what Christianity needs today is a new conservatism which is not based on the American small-town, sectarian, Bible-toting paradigm. It must be based on the classical European tradition – the Fathers, the Scholastics, the Reformers, Lewis, Chesterton, etc. That’s what I’m about. I’m not asking you to agree with me, or follow me; I’m just telling you where I stand.

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