Which interpretation do you align with for Luke 23:43 "I tell you this day you will be with me in paradise"

[adamjedgar (adam james edgar)]

@T_aquaticus

“This Matthew 27 story is like a religion having scripture which says a UFO landed on the White House lawn in April of 1993. How can there be no record of the event by anyone outside their religion? Does that seem incredulous to you? But this story in Matthew 27 is no different.”

I think it’s a fair question to ask and has nothing to do with naturalism.

Matthew 27:
" 51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people."

Why wasn’t this reported on by anyone outside of the gospel writers? The dead walking the streets would seemingly be something worth recording, as would the sudden ripping of the temple curtain. Events much less spectacular were recorded by historians of the time.

are we arguing here for the validity of the Christian account or denying it? It seems to me that you guys are using the evidence that Matthew 27 is a fairytale to support the notion we can take the difficult parts of the bible account here as a literary technique.

Thats supporting the notion of a fairytale.

Again, we do not need the Christian bible for morality…we can get that from other sources outside of religion.

AI Overview

Learn more

Morality, our understanding of right and wrong, is a product of both biological and cultural evolution, with our brains wired for moral reasoning and social interactions, and cultural norms further shaping our moral codes.

Here’s a more detailed explanation:

• Evolutionary Basis:

  • Psychological and neuroscience research suggest that morality is a product of evolution, with “building blocks” like fairness, empathy, and judging actions as harmful or helpful observed even in infancy.
  • Morality evolved because it enhances our ability to live in large social groups and interact with others.
  • Specific parts of the brain are involved in moral reasoning, and damage to certain areas can alter moral judgment.
  • Evolutionary biologists and sociobiologists believe that morality evolved because it provided possible survival or reproductive benefits, leading to the development of “pro-social” emotions like empathy and guilt.

• Cultural Influence:

  • While morality has a biological basis, it is also shaped by the culture in which we grow up.
  • What humans consider moral behavior varies across cultures and time.
  • Moral codes are outcomes of cultural evolution, accounting for the diversity of norms among populations and their evolution through time.

• Social Interaction and Cooperation:

  • Early human individuals who were socially selected for collaborative foraging developed new ways of relating to others, including strong cooperative motives and empathy.
  • If an individual depended on partners for foraging success, it made sense to help them to ensure future success.

[T_aquaticus]

@adamjedgar

are we arguing here for the validity of the Christian account or denying it? It seems to me that you guys are using the evidence that Matthew 27 is a fairytale to support the notion we can take the difficult parts of the bible account here as a literary technique.

I am staying neutral on the topic. I was pointing out that it is a fair question, and not one based on naturalism as you claimed.

[adamjedgar (adam james edgar)]

@T_aquaticus

@adamjedgar

are we arguing here for the validity of the Christian account or denying it? It seems to me that you guys are using the evidence that Matthew 27 is a fairytale to support the notion we can take the difficult parts of the bible account here as a literary technique.

I am staying neutral on the topic. I was pointing out that it is a fair question, and not one based on naturalism as you claimed.

it has everything to do with naturalism…if naturalism didnt exist via the mechanisms of Darwinian Evolution, we wouldnt have individuals here on these forums claiming that the only explanation for the biblical passages about creation and the flood ( by Moses, Christ and Apostle Peter - in both Old and New Testaments) is that they are literary techniques trying to explain morality but not the origins and future for life as we know it!

BTW…google AI overview

Naturalism

In philosophy, naturalism posits that only natural laws and forces operate in the universe, rejecting supernatural or metaphysical explanations, and emphasizes the scientific method as the primary means of understanding reality

note…“philosophy posits” and “emphasises the scienfific method”

so much for religion not be science based!

[T_aquaticus]

@adamjedgar

it has everything to do with naturalism…

I’m not seeing any references to naturalism in @mitchellmckain 's posts.

“This Matthew 27 story is like a religion having scripture which says a UFO landed on the White House lawn in April of 1993. How can there be no record of the event by anyone outside their religion? Does that seem incredulous to you? But this story in Matthew 27 is no different.”

Where is naturalism being invoked?

[adamjedgar (adam james edgar)]

@T_aquaticus

Where is naturalism being invoked?

BioLogos’s Perspective:

BioLogos believes that God can act in the world through natural processes, including evolution, rather than viewing evolution as a purely atheistic process

BioLogos suggests that God’s actions are not limited to the supernatural but also include the “laws of nature” that scientists study

BioLogos supports the idea that God created the world using evolution as the mechanism, rather than rejecting evolution as incompatible with a Christian worldview

BioLogos acknowledges that scientific investigation is limited to the natural world

Surely even you can see the problems above. If not, then lets also look at a couple of broader illustrations of the overwhelming theological issues the “literary/genre” proponents face in trying to explain away the creation and flood accounts in the bible:

Creation - in 7 days in Genesis 1 and 2, Exodus 20:8-11
Flood - in Genesis 6:1-7, Matthew 24:37-39, Mark 13:32-37, Luke 12:35-48, 2 Peter 2:5-8
Genealogies Genealogies in the Bible - Wikipedia
Generations of Adam Generations of Adam - Wikipedia

Lineage of Christ back through Noahs son Shem to Adam

We can trace the lineage of all the major Jewish historical figures from Noah to Christ from these lineages. We also have real historical and archeological evidence that quite a number of those individuals really existed
AI Overview

Learn more

Archaeological evidence supports the existence of many biblical figures, including kings, prophets, and some patriarchs, with names and events from the Hebrew Bible found in inscriptions and other artifacts from the same period.

Here’s a breakdown of the archaeological evidence:

Google AI

Kings:

• Names of Kings:

Archaeologists have discovered the names of many kings who ruled Israel and Judah in ancient inscriptions, including those from rulers of great nations like Egypt, Assyria, and Babylonia.

• Tel Dan Inscription:

An inscription found at Tel Dan mentions a “House of David,” providing external evidence for the Davidic dynasty.

• Mesha Stele:

The Mesha Stele, found in Moab, contains a probable reference to David.

• Hezekiah’s Seal:

A seal found in Jerusalem in 2015, belonging to Hezekiah, the son of Ahaz, king of Judah, was discovered.

• Isaiah the Prophet Seal:

Another seal found at the same site in Jerusalem, reading “belonging to Isaiah the Navevi” (prophet) was found.

Prophets:

• Prophets and their Names:

The names of some prophets, like Isaiah and Jeremiah, have been found in inscriptions and seals.

• Seals and Inscriptions:

Seals and inscribed clay tablets mention biblical characters and places, such as “the smiters of Pethor,” where Balaam lived.

Patriarchs:

• Limited Evidence:

While the Bible recounts the stories of patriarchs like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, archaeological evidence for their existence and the events surrounding them is limited, and many scholars view the patriarchal age as a late literary construct.

• Cave of the Patriarchs:

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam hold that the patriarchs are entombed at the Cave of the Patriarchs, a site held holy by the three religions.

• Rachel’s Tomb:

Rachel, Jacob’s other wife, is said to be buried separately at what is known as Rachel’s Tomb, near Bethlehem, at the site where she is believed to have died in childbirth.

Other Evidence:

• Merneptah Stele:

The Merneptah Stele, dated to about 1206 B.C.E., offers the earliest historical evidence of a people called Israel.

• Biblical Archaeology Society:

The Biblical Archaeology Society (BAS) has documented at least 50 people in the Hebrew Bible who have been confirmed archaeologically.

• Biblical Names:

The names of people mentioned in the Bible have been found in inscriptions and seals, which helps corroborate the biblical record.

• Geopolitical Situations:

Archaeology has confirmed the geopolitical situations described in the Bible.

Its boarding on the absurd to support the notion of Christianity and God and dissallow the literal reading of ancient history from the bible (creation and the flood) when large parts of that same biblical ancient history are also supported by an equally large amount of physical evidence!

[St.Roymond]

@mitchellmckain

Everything I said is right there in 1 Corinthians 15, excepting only the terminology of modern physics about space-time.

Nothing after “spiritual bodies” has anything to do with I Corinthians 15.

@adamjedgar

which is what the literary approach aims to do, because there is nothing else to be gleaned from that approach

Nonsense – the literary approach brings out the actual theology. For example, once you know what kind of literature it is, there’s enough theology in the first three (Hebrew) words of Genesis for a fifteen-minute sermon.

@adamjedgar

We can seek out the writings of other philosophers for our morality…Socratees for example.

So you advocate paganism for morality?
Morality, as theology, for Christians begins at the Cross.

[St.Roymond]

@T_aquaticus

Why wasn’t this reported on by anyone outside of the gospel writers? The dead walking the streets would seemingly be something worth recording, as would the sudden ripping of the temple curtain. Events much less spectacular were recorded by historians of the time.

The first is true, the second is not: the priests would have had no reason to let anyone outside the very inner circle to know about the ripping of the Temple curtain, and strong reason to keep it quiet.
As for the last, that’s what’s always bugged me about that verse: dead people coming to life and entering Jerusalem would have caused a furor that would have been noticed by the Romans even though the place was crowded due to the Passover. And it’s the sort of bizarre event that at least Pilate would have mentioned in a report to Rome, as well as something that Herod would have pounced on.

[St.Roymond]

@adamjedgar

Paul in 1 Cor 15 preceeds his spill about earthly and heavenly bodies with the statement… 39Not all flesh is the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another, and fish another.

Which suggests that this “spiritual body” is yet another kind of “flesh”, i.e. something solid – though given that angels are spirit(ual) and can be solid, it would be reasonable to suppose that the human spiritual body while normally solid would not be restricted to that state (e.g. it could enter a room without needing a door or window).

@adamjedgar

Its all good and well to claim a heavenly body isnt physcial, however, clearly Christs resurrected body was physical…that means that He (God) is nlt bound to or by, and operates outside the laws of, physics…God is not restricted by the laws of science.

Given that science has no way to detect or measure spirit or spiritual bodies and has no resurrected bodies to examine, your conclusion does not follow.

@adamjedgar

Once we throw out the genealogies and other literal evidences shown in its timeline, Christianity becomes nothing more than the fairytale that you subscribe to.

No, it doesn’t. When read as the kinds of literature it was written to be, a lot more depth of theology opens up.

@adamjedgar

it has everything to do with naturalism…if naturalism didnt exist via the mechanisms of Darwinian Evolution, we wouldnt have individuals here on these forums claiming that the only explanation for the biblical passages about creation and the flood ( by Moses, Christ and Apostle Peter - in both Old and New Testaments) is that they are literary techniques trying to explain morality but not the origins and future for life as we know it!

No one here has ever, as far as I can recall, made any such statement except for you.

@adamjedgar

lets also look at a couple of broader illustrations of the overwhelming theological issues the “literary/genre” proponents face in trying to explain away the creation and flood accounts in the bible:

There aren’t any theological issues with reading the various accounts as the kinds of literature they were written as – to the contrary, reading them as though they were written in the last century or so strips away most of the theology.

@adamjedgar

Archaeological evidence supports the existence of many biblical figures, including kings, prophets, and some patriarchs,

Just as archaeological evidence shows that there was no global flood, which is not a problem since the text does not teach a global flood – you have to ignore the ordinary use even of English to get that!

@adamjedgar

Here’s a breakdown of the archaeological evidence:

Google AI

Ah, poor Google – misleading by neglecting detail, and by including folklore (cave of patriarchs and Rachel’s tomb) in with archaeology.

Nothing in your list shows anything earlier than David.
FWIW I’ll point out that the books of Samuel do fit the historical context they describe, something google should have included in a good response – but instead it misrepresented the evidence for the “geopolitical situations” by neglecting to say that the fit between archaeology and the scriptures only arguably extends to earlier than Moses.

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

@adamjedgar

Paul teaches that it dies before it becomes a new body…the seed grows from death, not a living plant.

No those words are your addition to the text.

What Paul said was

What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body which is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.

and

44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.

So Paul actually teaches is… the physical body dies before the spiritual body comes to life, and… there being a physical body means there is also a spiritual body, and… there is so much more to the spiritual body than what you find in the physical body. Where the physical body is perishable, weak, and dust, the spiritual body is imperishable, powerful, and of heaven.

A big part of the problem is that words like “physical” has multiple meanings. One meaning is bodily like with the words “physical exercise,” and another meaning is natural like with the words “physical science” and “physical force.” But Paul makes this pretty clear, the resurrection gives us something physical only according to the first meaning and not the second meaning. It is a bodily (physical) resurrection to a spiritual body and not to a natural (physical) body.

I frankly think we have a similar problem with the word “spiritual” because for too many this word has come to mean something insubstantial, ephemeral, imaginary, or unreal. But how can such meanings apply to God which the Bible says is spirit?

[T_aquaticus]

@adamjedgar

Surely even you can see the problems above. If not, then lets also look at a couple of broader illustrations of the overwhelming theological issues the “literary/genre” proponents face in trying to explain away the creation and flood accounts in the bible:

We aren’t talking about the creation and flood accounts. We are talking about the events in Matthew 27. Perhaps you could address those?

[T_aquaticus]

@St.Roymond

The first is true, the second is not: the priests would have had no reason to let anyone outside the very inner circle to know about the ripping of the Temple curtain, and strong reason to keep it quiet.

That begs the question of how the author of Matthew knew about it.

@St.Roymond

As for the last, that’s what’s always bugged me about that verse: dead people coming to life and entering Jerusalem would have caused a furor that would have been noticed by the Romans even though the place was crowded due to the Passover. And it’s the sort of bizarre event that at least Pilate would have mentioned in a report to Rome, as well as something that Herod would have pounced on.

As stated earlier, I’m sure someone can come up with some kind of viable explanation, but it does raise questions at first blush. This also applies to the temple curtain event.

[EDC1]

Jesus being ‘first’ refers to his physical resurrection to a ‘spiritual’ body not subject to decay or death. I believe it was just as physical as the one that died, hence his physical resurrection (his body was not left lying in the tomb but resurrected) but it was a resurrection to a new dimension of existence. None of the other resurrections of the likes of Lazarus were ‘first’ as these were just temporary resuscitations as the individual would die again at some point. Not so Jesus.

I agree that Matthew’s raising of the saints may be some sort of literary technique (as Mike Licona thinks, even though he firmly believes in Jesus’ physical resurrection from the dead) but it could also be historical. If the latter, it’s hard to know how many were involved, could be 10, 20 or whatever. Given the dearth of records from 2000 years ago I wouldnt be surprised if we had no access to writings concerning them. So that does not negate the possibility it happened.