Since I don’t think what sets us apart makes it beyond the grave, how would a face do so? Admittedly I have serious doubts that anything makes it beyond the grave. But if anything does make it I don’t think it will be our fingerprints, appearance, memories, face, habits or DNA. When we die we lose what makes us unique and rejoin that which makes all else possible which I do not personify.
That is one of the points Rauser makes–how can anything pass beyond the grave? @jpm’s post does a good job of exploring that for me. I see all kinds of personality changes brought on by chemicals–which makes the existence of a non material quiddity seem unlikely or at least difficult to grasp.
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Was that the podcast mentioned in your first post in this thread? I don’t recall that coming up.
Hmmm…
I think it is our choices which “makes it beyond the grave.”
But then on a biological level, all these things… “fingerprints, appearance, memories, face, habits” are choices we have made. They are not the choices of the mind, of course. But while the mind may be the more important part of what we are, it is not all of us either.
DNA…, chemistry, physics, hormonal balances and such is another matter. That is just a medium like the ink and paper in which a book is written.
I hear you. Who knows? I can’t imagine what He looks like. I’ve wondered about it and wished that I could.
Yet, truthfully, I met him and who He is dwarfs anything that defines his appearance. I have no idea how the universe began, literally. I have no idea how the material is formed out of the non-material. I don’t understand GOD, how He has always existed and always will, his infinite size, all that stuff. But, I have met him and meeting him is so simple to do it boggles my mind how prone I am to complicate it. He can be known just like any human being can be known.
If anything makes it beyond the grave where should it go? Is there room or need for it in the world we live in now, or is a spirit realm required? And if anything does make it beyond the grave was whatever that may be someplace before I was born? I believe each new generation enjoys a clean slate and that slate gets wiped clean to make room for the next.
Well I certainly believe in a reality, which the physical is only a small part of – where there is plenty of substance outside the physical space-time structure which readily takes its form from the choices of physical living organisms.
No.
Because it is not the material you are made of which is you but the form of it, right?
Physically that simply isn’t true. In the physical reality the choices we make effect everything and everyone that comes after us. So, you would frankly have to believe in something beyond the physical for such a thing as you describe to be the case. To nail that idea of a “clean slate” down to something concrete is why I talk about the choices we make. Our spirit consists only of the choices we make and nobody else’s.
Well, sort of obliquely maybe, in the last part of point 1. Thanks
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Well culturally there can be no clean slate. We all benefit from and contribute to what that is. Would there be any humanity without it? We all stand on the shoulders of the ancestors in important ways.
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Do you believe when you die there is no more you? At all, ever, in any way?
That’s right.
Ironically conditional immortality also leads me to believing the same for nonbelievers lol.
I wish you all the luck in the world in getting all the immortality you want. I don’t hate the idea but I’ve lived with the expectation of mortality for a long time. If I’m wrong that might not be too disappointing but if I’m right, I’ll never know.
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Same here. The immortality aspect of it has never mattered much to me but christianity played a little role in my childhood. It use to anger people when I told them even if that was not part of my faith it would not change my appreciation for God and creation.
I had a near death experience. It was too real, too frightening, too informative about the path I was on. I will never forget it, ever. Not for a moment.
I was near death in the sense that I could not find anything to live for. I was too afraid to off myself and couldn’t stand me any more. I felt terribly sorry for myself that an injury closed the door on playing football for a big time college program on scholarship. I had never been good at anything, but I happened to be very good at that sport. In a split second it was gone.
My beer drinking and whoring left me friendless, alone, desperate and miserable. Filled with hatred and bitterness, everything I touched I ruined.
Never, ever believed in anything “religious”. I was raised by intellectuals who despised all religions and Catholicism in particular. And I mean despised. “The most evil influence in the world.” That was their motto and my indoctrination.
When I was smoking and drinking first thing in the morning and each evening after work in blistering heat in the desert, I prayed. I was told by my boss, who was a real good guy, that he believed Jesus was God’s Son and if you prayed to him, he would become your savior. I didn’t believe in Santa Claus or fairy tales and that was all that was. What pure bologna.
Eventually, I found myself unable to sleep and my consumption of beer and wine wasn’t knocking me out. So, from the depths of who I am, I prayed. “Jesus, help me. God, help me. Help me!.” Over and over and over and over with all my soul, all my endurance, from the bottom of my heart, repeatedly. I begged him. I pleaded, “Help me.”
I knew perfectly well no one was listening, but I continued. On and on, lying on my water bed, fist raised in the air, “God help me. God, help me. Help me. Help me. Help me.” It seemed as though my life was being dragged into torment with no way out. Regret, self-hatred, jealousy, loneliness, despair, self-pity, rage with no where to go with it. I couldn’t escape myself any longer but I couldn’t go on. I was terrified to die. I feared I might live even if I was dead, physically.
I believe He heard me that night and answered me. Somehow, Love entered my life and it was the sweetest thing I ever knew. Even to this day. I never believed in the supernatural. Never thought about it much. Playing football, chasing girls and drinking were my life until I almost died.
I know most people despise Christians and justifiably so in ,many cases. I never wanted to stand out or stand up for any cause. Too self-conscious. And, here I am today hoping everyone would just give him a shot. A real shot. To let him prove to each one He is real and good and loving. And the resistance is absolutely phenomenal.
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Randal Rauser’s modest critique of “A Reasonable Faith” received a response from William Lane Craig
His blog is here William Lane Craig Responds to My Modest Critique of Reasonable Faith - Randal Rauser
Thanks.
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This was a helpful response as Craig specifies audience and context for when his book would be appropriate to teach. My question is whether it’s being advertised clearly for those purposes. Rauser restates a few things here that addresses the weaknesses of apologetics, in the broad term:
There is an appropriate place for Craig’s apologetics book, but it should be presented clearly as well as the limitations of its application for churchgoers. I think this needs to be made clear for the reasons that Rauser gives in his responses that the apologetics that are commonly offered simply don’t address the issues that connect people to purposes of apologetics. So where a space for an excellent apologetics course is offered, it should also be extended to the issues that are actually causing people to not be able to put their faith in the God our apologetics try to point to.
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This rings true to me. More often arguments from Craig and others come off as convincing as a used car salesman’s declaration that the car you’re interested in was in fact driven no more than once a week and for no more than five miles. In debates there is no discernible effort to really understand the other side’s perspective and in forum discussions (not here) there often seems to be an ungrounded attempt to toss out big words to cover the underlying poor grasp of science. (That in fact does happen here, though not without being challenged.). All of this reflects badly on Christianity, unfortunately even those who don’t share those bad habits who actually have helpful things to say. Those of us on outside have to listen past the chorus of many frogs to hear those with with important things to say.
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