Sorry. I can’t help. IMO, The books of Revelation and “The Song of Solomon” are the two most useless books in the Bible.
Wouldnt call the book that basically speaks about when Christ will come again “useless” but ok
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I’m not willing to bend the evidence either. I hear futurists try to use that line of reasoning all the time.
For me in this situation I let scripture interpret itself. Matthew 24 does not fit with any date after early 70 ad. It only fits with time after the death of Jesus and before the destruction of the temple. There is no evidence to over throw it.
The testimony of people over a century later, and so on, or common practices by this or thst emperor, plays very little in harmonizing scripture in this case.
I much prefer Michael Card’s version, in his album of songs " Unveiled Hope: Eternal Encouragement from the Book of Revelation". As for being “a book that basically speaks about when Christ will come again”, if you like arm-wrestling over “when”, maybe you’d enjoy inviting some Jehovah’s Witnesses over when the Pandemic is over. Or I could introduce you to some cousins of mine who are absolutely convinced Jesus is coming back very soon, like within a year or so. Me? I don’t like arm-wrestling over “when”. It’s enough for me just to believe that He lves now.
Νο thanks.
Umm no one is really concerned when this will happen (expect the jehovass witnesses as you noted).What im concenred with its the meaning it has .Not when will Christ come
I’d second this recommendation. I was surprised when I first listened to it that a treatment of the book of Revelation could be both hopeful and joyful.
There are Christian groups and denominations that display higher concern about the “when” than others. There are plenty of end-times predictions and timelines out there, and the “Left Behind craze” of the late 90s (maybe combined with Y2K) certainly fanned those flames. Perhaps those views have become less mainstream, but they’re definitely not gone.
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Well the YECERS i know at least arent into that.And i know alot .I knew about these predictions but i cant take seriously people who believe them.I honestly cannot even graple my mind around people going to megachurches and believing these lies they are fed.But thats another topic.Well its the same thing as these movements you mentioned above.
Maybe this is a difference between the church in Europe and the church in America… you all may have missed out on the various forms of rapture panic that have happened here over the past few decades.
Well it is a big difference i think.But its kinda the same thing as the 2012 suicides.You know the people that believed the end was near and commited suicide as to not see the earths destruction
I hadn’t heard about that… that’s very sad. Mass hysteria can be a terrible thing.
666 refers to Nero in the 1st century. There is no doubt about that. Paul’s ‘man of lawlessness’ also seems to refer to the same Nero, with the reigning Emperor Claudius being the one holding him back for a time, until Nero was made Emperor. The name Claudius means ‘restrainer’. Paul was writing during Claudius’ reign so he was prophecying the coming misery wrought through his successor, Nero. We know from history just how awful Nero was. He was truly a beast.
You might find Ian Paul’s article on this useful, at https://www.psephizo.com/biblical-studies/antichrist-man-of-lawlessness-and-the-beast/
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Was Claudius the prophet of the beast you mean? Also
These would be the same questions ad iask to you as well.
Revelation seems to be primarily about the time of John’s writing, with a little bit referring to the future. 666 definitely refers to Nero in the 1st century. See my response to the original poster.
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When do you consider the time of John’s writing? I’m going broadly with 80-110 and probably 90-100 if pressed further.
Vinnie
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Like the Gospels it is difficult to date, and arguments can be presented for early or late dating. But many commentators suggest roughly 85 - 95 which is perfectly possible. If the author is the same as that of John’s Gospel, then he would have been writing (or had an amanuensis to write it down) towards the end of his life.
Though not directed at me I would say that the writing of revelation would be around late 60s AD.
Matthew 24 is directly linked to revelation. One of the things Matthew mentions is that Jesus was standing and looking at the temple, the 2nd built temple, and saying that it would be destroyed and that the abomination would also cause the saints to need to be watchful and flee into the mountains and pray that the events don’t happen in winter.
The temples were standing in the 60s but destroyed in 70ad. So to me that seems to direct the date of revelation to being prior to that destruction which means prior to March 70ad.
Although the identification of 666/616 with Nero is quite popular currently, it doesn’t seem to have occurred to the ancient commentators, who were rather more closely in contact with that culture. The use of Hebrew letters for Nero for Greek-speaking audiences also seems dubious. There was some sort of legend about Nero returning, which could contribute to John’s imagery. But probably more relevant is the fact that 7 and 3 symbolize perfection; 666 becomes completely falling short.
Although in practice I haven’t seen (but have not searched for) a particular correlation between YEC and end-times calculation, in principle both reflect a similarly undue insistence that the text must be a modern historical and scientific account. A similar attitude is found in many criticisms of the Bible. These also tend to make personal interpretation inerrant, rather than recognizing the importance of checking one’s ideas against the insights and wisdom of others. A good summary of Revelation that I have encountered is “God wins.” It was written to first-century Christians, not typically with a lot of education and certainly not with time on their hands for puzzling out mystic predictions, facing various degrees of persecution and pressures to conform. But it looks ahead to an ultimate future, and is thereby relevant to us today. Rather than trying to identify the antichrist Left Behind-style, we are to beware of the many antichrists that I John warns of. Likewise, rather than arguing about whether the US or China better exemplifies the crass greed of the whore of Babylon, we should deplore and beware of both trends.
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The Laodiceans were a rich, proud people and even though Rome offered to pay for the city to be rebuilt, they rebuilt the city on their own. And that wasn’t the first time it had been rebuilt. Revelation is full of events that didn’t happen in or @ 70 AD. Did the cities of the nations fall? Did Enoch and Elijah return to restore all things? Did flying insects with stings like scorpions come and sting everyone except those God marked? Did people try suicide, but were unable to kill themselves because God prevented them? Were the bodies of three of the world’s most famous people, risen from the dead after 3 days? Did Enoch and Elijah turn water to blood? Did they kill people with fire out of their mouths? Revelation is about these last days! Everything it says will happen must happen!
I find that argument to be just as far fetched as the argument by modern Biblical scholars that this prediction by Jesus means that Matthew was written after 70 AD. Yours is the same kind of argument backwards. I find their arguments unacceptable because knowing the political conditions of the time would make this rather easy to predict. I find your argument unacceptable because just being mentioned in the book of Revelation doesn’t mean the temple is standing when it was written or make it a prophesy of the destruction of temple before it happened… Sorry… your argument is as thin as the description in the book is vague.
That’s fine.
Because I think the same thing about yours. Most of yours in fact.
Because again. Logic.
- Matthew 24 and Revelation are about the same events. If you disagree, prove it.
Since they are about the same event, that means that they took place before 70 ad, or either that Jesus was wrong .
Matthew 24:1-3
New American Standard Bible
Signs of Christ’s Return
24 Jesus left the temple area and was going on His way when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2 But He responded and said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”
3 And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
- He points to the temple and says it will be destroyed. That’s the beginning. They then ask more questions about what will happen.
Matthew 24:9
New American Standard Bible
9 “Then they will hand you over to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
- He said they, they themselves, would face tribulations. That from every nation they would be hated.
-Acts 17:6
New American Standard Bible
6 When they did not find them, they began dragging Jason and some brothers before the city authorities, shouting, “These men who have upset the world have come here also;
Here it’s mentioned that they were the i g the whole world upside down, implying people from the whole world was mad at them.
Matthew 24:15-22
New American Standard Bible
Perilous Times
15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place—let the reader understand— 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get things out of his house. 18 And whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 But woe to those women who are pregnant, and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 Moreover, pray that when you flee, it will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will again. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
- Here we see that it’s talking especially about Judea being hit by the abomination. Says for those there to flee into the mountains, run across the rooftops. That’s because of the way the houses and infrastructure was built. Much like many mountain region Mediterranean houses today. It also said hope that these events, the start of them, does not happen in winter. Pray that they don’t. Well, guess what? The events begin March through September. They begin early spring and went through summer. That was the siege of Jerusalem.
Matthew 24:14
New American Standard Bible
14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
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As mentioned it says they were turning the whole world upside down.
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Colossians 1:23
New American Standard Bible
23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. -
Colossians 1:5-6
New American Standard Bible
5 because of the hope reserved for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel 6 which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth; -
Romans 16:25-27
New American Standard Bible
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now has been disclosed, and through the Scriptures of the prophets, in accordance with the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.
So we can see there was many verses showing that to them, they gospel was heard throughout the whole earth in their lifetime. And just like Jesus said, “ once every nation has heard the gospel then the end will come” and that happened by 70 ad.
Many scholars believe that both Colossians and Romans was written between 55-64ad.
There are either verses that hint at this as well.
1 Corinthians 7:29-31
New American Standard Bible
29 But this I say, brothers, the time has been shortened, so that from now on those who have wives should be as though they had none; 30 and those who weep, as though they did not weep; and those who rejoice, as though they did not rejoice; and those who buy, as though they did not possess; 31 and those who use the world, as though they did not make full use of it; for the present form of this world is passing away
- The time has been shortened, linking back to Matthew 24:22.
So you don’t have to accept it. But there is not a better, more systematic theological approach to understanding what it meant. It all likes together seamlessly.
Again. If you disagree, show me why. More than just “ no I can’t, I won’t , I must not” .