Besides the good reasons already given, there have been at least a couple recent threads frankly critical of AIG mostly in response to the openly hostile things they’ve been publishing about BioLogos. I believe Randy’s intent was that we not become entirely polarized on our end. After all many who come to embrace the theological interpretations promoted here come out of communities under the sway of AIG. It is or should be possible to separate the trained scientists who should know better from our relatives who are under their influence as @jammycakes has been at pains to do.
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You make a good point, echoing some of the thoughts of Martin Luther King regarding moderate ministers in his Letter from a Birmingham Jail, but in the culture Ham is in the middle of, it could be argued that he really is working to change the attitudes of that population.
In any case, I think the idea is that there were other threads for criticism, and we need to look for the positive also. I am certainly guilty of negativism myself. It is Sunday here, and I need to go off to church. Have a blessed day!
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It’s often the case that a person’s strength can also be their greatest weakness (or vice versa). AIG gets dogpiled a lot around here (by me as much as anyone else) for putting scriptures forward as a singular all-or-nothing unit which will be accepted or rejected whole-cloth.
I’ll use Randy’s exhortation here as an opportunity to say that I think this stems from an admirable quality of AIG. They see the life of faith as a call to total commitment. Christ doesn’t want just part of us. And I think this highest of imperatives is what motivates much of the determination that characterizes the AIG crowd to persist in the face of much unkind cultural mockery.
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I am not aware of anything in terms of major embezzlement or moral scandal. Nowadays, that is not nothing, right?
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Disagreement is not the same as divisiveness. I can disagree with people even on basic issues without calling them enemies or enemies of God.
The issue seems to be what is science and what is not. If you accept YEC for faith reasons, that is faith and not science. If I reject YEC for faith and science reasons that is also faith and should not be rejected as unfaith.
Itis very true that some people have used Darwinism to support racism and eugenics. Itis also true that many people have used the Bible to support racism. This does not make the Bible or evolution right or wrong, and it certainly does not make the Bible good science.
I do not believe that the curse of Canaan is valid Biblical truth. And for good measure Jesus reversed the curse when He blessed the Canaanite woman. Evolution has been falsely understood and needs to be fixed, rather than rejected by Christians.
Christians need to work together on issues of faith and science, instead of rejecting differing views out of hand.
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Thanks. There are many reasons to be positive, as enumerated above, by many of you.
- It keeps dialogue open
- Scripture recommends that we put the person above the issue at hand–with Christ treating those who disagreed with him, with love (eg, coals of fire, walking the extra mile, etc)
- In many situations, it’s recommended that a rebuke be sandwiched between 2 positive observations. This makes it more likely that the other will listen.
- It avoids tribalism–we don’t want to do what we condemn in AiG, as being unfriendly and hypercritical, to the point of breaking fellowship over small things, relative to our commonalities with not only AiG, or fellow Christians, but the whole world.
- Finally, it’s easy for people to make generalizations about each other’s groups, including even odd presumptions, such as were in those of Calvin Smith’s concerns about heresy. Personally affirming commonalities of good intent, rather than arguing over abstracts, seems a preferable approach.
This is not to ignore the wrong things that AiG does. There are a lot of other areas that we have documented that, and are continuing to do so (as in the Heresy thread).
Thanks.
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Well, a couple of things I can be charitable about with AiG or at least YEC in general.
First, one of the people working in the creation museum (Patrick Marsh) used to be a member of my church here in Tokyo. I think he built or designed some of the stage trappings for some of the Christmas concerts we used to do called “The Singing Christmas Tree”. He was very talented. A long time ago, he designed the trappings for the movie Jaws. However, when I remember him, he had fallen into very hard times. His wife was in our theology courses and mentioned the personal crisis he was going through. I guess he really believes this stuff, … there are members in my church who do as well. … Nevertheless, it deeply saddens me to know that he was not recognized for his talent and basically left for garbage for a very long time. Only the Creation Museum was willing to take a risk (hardly!) on such a talented individual. You’ve got to admit that Noah’s ark is an incredible engineering project. As little as I know about it, I’m almost certain that Patrick was involved with designing and building that.
There is something wrong when people like that are ignored and maybe that is a plague on society that society often humiliates very talented people sometimes as much as it does its criminals.
Second, in line with all of the above, I do know people at my church who are YEC. Some of them really are good people, they have helped me in my spiritual walk, and they have been tolerant of me and my foibles. They have never irresponsibly questioned my faith, as some have (both YEC and others). In fact, they have generously recognized it from time to time.
Obviously, any of us who are Christian have to admit that we are creationists at some level. The thing is, I simply cannot agree with the YEC way of thinking; the 6000-year-old earth, and all the other absurdities they want us to accept with a seamless transition between light 6006 years old and 6007. There is no coherent picture that can be made from their ideas that can match with science, nor can it find oil and minerals or predict the structure of biomolecules (something I see every day). It all becomes just rescuing attempts to balance an inverted pyramid.
Moreover, God orders our steps, even though we have a will and often refuse to listen to God and do the opposite. God is also the alpha and the omega. Yet the evolution of the universe and life are merely physical processes that could be “ordered” from the beginning of time. How much easier would it be for God to order the steps of the universe, to order the steps of evolution. On the face of it, it is random, but God made the cards, the dice, and God sees through all time. No matter how insanely complicated that would be, compared to our will as individuals, it is basically nothing. YEC folks accept that we have to revise our own way of thinking about other people when we meet Jesus, why can they not also accept that it is sometimes necessary to revise our way of thinking about God.
So I cannot agree with YEC beyond the fundamental point that God is the creator of all that is, was, and ever will be, the apostle’s creed, and various other standard doctrines of the Christian faith. Still, at least on that, we are in agreement. … and I have found something charitable to say. …
by Grace we proceed
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Wow. Randy. What a good thread, and a good moral challenge for all of us.
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I think this depends on the type of person. For most people, I don’t think their profession really requires that they concern themselves with the age of the earth, and most of the time, they can get by without worrying about evolution.
As an educator, I don’t think it should be “our job” to make people accept evolution (note that I don’t say to “believe in” evolution, I say to “accept” evolution). It is important, I think, to teach about evolution and explain clearly what it is and what it isn’t. It would also help if those who do not have a faith (and certainly not the Judeo-Christian faith) would restrain themselves from making evolution into a billy club to beat down the ignorant masses. Evolution is a very difficult subject to understand, taking many years for most people to grasp. Students should understand that science uses evolution to solve a lot of problems because it works and it builds a powerful paradigm that keeps giving.
Nevertheless, perhaps we all need to be humble enough to recognize that we all believe a lot of nonsense, our journey is often one of rooting out bad ideas one smidgeon at a time, and maybe there is no comparing who has the biggest monopoly on nonsense.
That said, to the people who really are in science, particularly people dedicated to sciences like physics/astronomy, paleontology/geology, and biology, YEC is just embarrassing. I would think that these people are driven away from the faith; not only because it really doesn’t measure up, but because some YEC people are extremely rude and their ignorance is utterly appalling. Even if those of us who have accepted evolution meet God at the Pearly Gates and find out that we are wrong, it surely wasn’t for a lack of effort on our part to get to the truth. The picture that we act in some secret cabal to suborn the truth with lies is just a cruel joke and (I think) quite disingenuous.
Science is about evaluating models and methods and building on those models to make more findings. It builds up from a solid foundation that is based on many fields where the top of the pyramid has all the interlocking bricks of the lower layers to support it. The YEC model tends to be a hodgepodge of jury-rigged solutions that cannot build on themselves and cannot make real predictions. It is an inverted pyramid.
There is another side to this too. For the pastors, they don’t see any scientists in the pews. Even more so, few if any actually serve in the church. The pastor cannot help but wonder if the problem is evolution. Some people in the secular world have tried to use evolution as a billy club to demolish the faith, so they have some reason to think that is why. Little do they understand that preaching that “the answer” is to believe in a 6000-year-old earth is exactly what drives many people away.
With the coronavirus, I do think evolution is a concept that would better serve our community, as it is evolving and, whereas it is likely eventually to evolve into something more benign in the future, there is no guarantee. However, evolution, at the level of understanding, is very difficult to teach. It was hard for me to understand too.
We should not be trying to divide each other over the issue of rocks. I know Morris criticized believing in the rock of ages, not the ages of rocks, but I still think he is wrong. Our first call is to look to Jesus. Our call is to reach out to the nations, be compassionate to those who need compassion, and call to account those who need to be called to account. Most of all, we are to set an example of Godly character. These are far hard enough on their own to do, this is what God called us to do, and we need God’s divine help to get them done. Jesus is our guide. These are the things that should matter, not how old the rocks may be, or how God works in the world; be it evolution or by magic.
by Grace we proceed
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There certainly are scientists in the pews. Heck, there are even scientists in the pulpit!
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Ok…Fine. And when social needs of others and the politics that are required to pass legislation and provide funding to meet the needs (personal and corporate infrastructure) where are the “Evangelical Christians” who deny science and deny reading the Biblical texts critically…and fight against educating our public school children “critically”?
Loving one’s neighbors also requires holding them accountable for the effects their beliefs and actions have on the Community at large.
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That might be part of why, even though our church is very conservative, I have yet to hear any mention of YEC views: everyone there (all 40 or so of them) knows that my grandfather (the only founding member who still regularly attends there) and my father are paleontologists, and one of the current ruling elders is a microbiology professor. The closest is my overhearing the same elder talking about his conversion being due to realizations (of a nature-is-more-intricate-than-I-thought nature) during grad school.
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Yes, some churches, very likely churches in large metropolises, or the suburbs surrounding such major hubs. However, I am talking in general. YEC is a kind of parochial view. Rural areas are less likely to have jobs that support scientists. Rural areas also have very knowledgeable people, but not so often in science. It is very easy to spread this YEC thinking where there is no push-back from people who are scientists. It is easy to denounce scientists when they are not in the pews to push back.
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Thanks for your postings, @wkdawson . They made me think.
I also appreciated your discussion about Patrick Marsh. It looks like AiG did indeed give him a good rein and due praise. Unfortunately, it appears he passed away just recently.
In Memoriam: Patrick Marsh | Answers in Genesis
I also appreciated your thoughts on interaction with those of other understanding–that most of all, we are to set an example of Godly character.
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Thank you for letting me know. They occasionally came back to Japan to visit, but I had not seen him or his wife for quite some time now.
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Love it!
This is on point, especially when it comes to Ken Ham. He has had multiple speaking engagements when it comes to racial reconciliation here in the United States.
Something we should all agree with!
I cannot say about staff on AiG, but I know many YECs who are Godly and kind.
Jesus said the world will know we are His followers by our love for one another. Thanks for this thread, brother! 
-Joshua W.
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I also like that it’s one letter off from the abbreviation for Alice in Chains (AiC) so whenever I see it for a second I’m like “Facelift is a great record”
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This is certainly true. However, I’m pretty sure that the ways of thinking that YECism promotes can undermine your ability to do your job properly if you work in any area of science or technology, not just geology or evolutionary biology.
[Personal anecdotal content removed by moderator.]
For my own part, there came a point when I realised that the anti-intellectual, anti-science kind of thinking characteristic of YECism was doing massive damage to my own career prospects. In the years after I graduated from university, I ended up getting into a whole lot of thinking that held that facts are not the truth, that reason is the enemy of faith, that science is something “secular” that is not to be trusted, and so on and so forth – and a whole lot of conspiracy theories into the bargain. At one point I even ended up feeling ashamed of my degree in Natural Sciences from Cambridge University. The result was that I ended up finding that I was still in a minimum wage job ten years after graduation, having to relearn a whole lot of skills that I’d unlearned and to unlearn a whole lot of ways of thinking that I’d picked up that were stopping me from functioning properly in the workplace. The whole process left me constantly worrying in case I was relearning things or unlearning things that I shouldn’t be, and when I realised what had been going on I reached a point where I very nearly lost my faith altogether because of it. But that’s why I have so little patience for young earth nonsense or any other form of science denial in the Church. It demands that I get back into ways of thinking that at one point were making me borderline unemployable. It’s also why I thank God for BioLogos – as well as strengthening my faith, the support I’ve had from these forums has enabled me to progress in my career without feeling guilty and conflicted about it.
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I think you are right. However, I can also see that you can have lots of empathy for folks that struggle in that way. Your first posts in Biologos from a YEC perspective (that you linked) show probing, and evidence of search for truth that looks for an impartial balance. It’s by patient, understanding discussion that we can communicate well. It takes a while to birth that out. Thanks.
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Hi @jammycakes,
Thank you for the very candid testimony. I remember when I first became a Christian (in the university), I was not at all a scientist but I grasped that science was a major issue I needed to consider with my newly discovered faith. I prayed to God, and somehow, his answer was “you don’t have to believe that stuff [i.e. YEC].” I eventually became a scientist because I really wanted to understand science and the issues of science and faith. I never really had a major problem with microevolution, but I did find it difficult to understand macroevolution. I ended up working in biotechnology, so eventually, grasped the concept.
I think the main difference I have is that, as Christians, I believe (note: “believe”, a faith term) that God is the alpha and omega, and that God orders our steps. Given so, why can we not accept that God ordered the steps of the universe? Physical processes, no matter how complex, are a cinch compared to our stubborn lot. There is just no reason to reject evolution, other than our own prejudices. Yet who can tell God, “Hey! what are you doing?”
It is hard for me to imagine functioning normally in most of what I have done with a YEC mindset. The only reason I didn’t say all science is I can imagine someone who is a genius at organic synthesis not really needing to accept evolution to be able to come up with ingenious ways to make organic compounds. … at least as long as he/she doesn’t open the mouth on other matters.
Nevertheless, there is territory like abiogenesis where it is not 100% obvious how someone like that would navigate. It is true that basically, it doesn’t work in any realistic way at this point, but we may not have been clever enough. I have been playing with the idea of clay minerals acting as a catalyst with phosphates to join the sugars. Nothing encouraging yet … but that is what I mean, if I actually find something, it is my duty as a scientist to report it. For me, it would be another reason for me to praise God because God’s creation is so much more ingenious than we are. … and we could probably do some incredible things with it were it true.
I certainly cannot agree with the YEC way of thinking, and I am deeply concerned that it is destructive in other ways. I can tell an alcoholic to get off the bottle, I can tell a shorter to stop gambling on the stock market, but until they decide that quit, my words will go largely unheeded. I think the best I can do is be able to tell people who suddenly realize that YEC stuff really doesn’t work, that God is still there, you can still find God, and Jesus still died for our sins and we need God’s divine help every day. To tell them that it is still worth the pearl of great price to seek the kingdom of God with all our heart. I am very grateful to hear that you didn’t throw away God when you recognized that the YEC stuff wasn’t working for you anymore. God is so much bigger and greater than all that stuff.
by Grace we proceed,
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