What on Earth Happened?

only for the uniformitarian who refuses to believe that Noahs flood actually occurred.

We have scientific proof that rapid geological change occurs on a much smaller scale, so the notion it could happen on a large scale is not questionable. We even have evidences of global sedimentary deposition…its found all around the world in the very earth most of the fossils are found.

What I find really interesting, indeed supportive of the Biblical account is the following from British Geological Survey:

Consider also Mount St Hellens…

Then one of the largest earthquakes in modern history:

“1960 Valdivia earthquake in Chile, a magnitude 9.5 event, which occurred on the Peru-Chile Trench along a megathrust fault where the Nazca plate subducts under the South American plate. This earthquake caused significant coastal uplift and reshaped the regional landscape, with some areas seeing uplift of up to 2.5 meters (8 feet)”

NASA

Imagine those events on a global scale where, as the Bible account clearly claims, these phenomena were occurring all around the world during the flood.

I do not think your claim there is of any concern. Its more of a problem to support the scaling game used by atheists to support the big bang theory than scaling for Noahs flood…especially when we clearly have so many fossils already in sedimentary deposits that are attributable to flood events.

personally, i dont really understand what the point of that claim even is? None of us were alive when it all started, we cannot actually refer to any historical evidence that supports or denies any of that…i dont have any issue with either side there.

Given i am one of i think only 2 YEC regularly on these forums, i know im a small representative of the group, however, its not something that worries my theological position at all.

It seems to me that your argument there stems from this idea that prior to the big bang, God didnt exist. Is that what you really believe science is telling you?

i love it when TEists screw themselves with impossible dilemmas when they limit God to science. Your only real answer there is a scientifically stupid one…the defense for the miracles dilemma - “we cant test that”…and yet your belief remains set in concrete…God is bound to science.

No: only for someone who recognizes that the laws of nature do not change. The only way those mountain ranges do not have that minimum age is if God is not faithful but is capricious and whimsical and performs miracles that result in lies.
The only uniformitarian principle involved is that rocks remain rocks and do not become something else along the way. It has nothing to do with radiology of fossils, it has to do with the physical properties of rocks.

On small scales the heat involved can be contained by the globe. The large scale required for “Flood geology” would result in a molten Earth at best.
So either there was no global flood or God is a liar. Why? Because for the Noah event to have occurred the way YEC says, God would have been changing the laws of nature right and left, for no reason, leaving those who believe He is faithful to conclude that the world is incredibly ancient.
This is why people reject YEC: they know better than to make God out to be such a liar.

Yes – by tens of thousands, even millions, of different events that are clearly different events.

Please stop with the St. Helens deception. Nothing there supports YEC – anyone who says different is lying.
Or maybe just stupid.

The Bible claims no such thing. This is just Scheiße machen, making crap up.

Your version of YEc, indeed all YEC, shows such total lack of respect for the text of the Bible that it’s no wonder why atheists think YEC is so much fun!

Sorry, but the Big Bang physics works, and the “Flood geology” physics would turn the Earth almost into a small version of the Big Bang.

2 Likes

Oh come, on, you’re not actually that stupid.

I’m not a “TEist”, so stop with that lie. The only limitation here is that God is faithful. YEC makes God into Loki – nothing but a trickster.

1 Like

Well, some vivid imagination is required to read earthquakes and volcanoes into the Biblical reference to springs of water.

2 Likes

The rocks were there. Past events can leave evidence in the present. If you don’t think this is reliable, then there are a whole lot of criminals that need to be released because we would have to throw out forensic evidence.

Those two paragraphs contradict each other. Uniformitarianism is the concept that the same processes and physical laws that are active today were also active in the past and don’t change willy nilly across space or time. Therefore, if you are citing a modern geologic event as evidence for past events then you are using uniformitarianism.

Also, what features would a sedimentary deposit need in order to falsify a young Earth or a global flood? What scientific criteria do you use to determine how a sediment was deposited?

Geologists already understand that tuffs can be quickly deposited. It’s not a mystery. Just because volcanic ash can be quickly deposited does not mean all sediments can be deposited quickly, such as chalks or lake varves.

Also, your Mt. St. Helens example doesn’t support your claims. It shows these deposits don’t require a global flood nor a recent flood. These types of deposits can be deposited locally and at any time in the Earth’s 4.5 billion year history.

The man in the picture below is George Lemaitre, the guy who came up with the Big Bang theory. Do you think he’s an atheist?

How do you determine that they are attributable to a flood event? What are the criteria you use? What features would a deposit need in order to not be consistent with a flood event?

2 Likes

Heh – good catch.

So St. Helens actually argues against “flood geology” – can’t believe I didn’t catch that.

Notice he said “events”, plural! That’s what the evidence shows, that these sediments were laid down in a multitude of different events, not just one.

2 Likes

I can’t believe YECs keep using Mt. St. Helens as evidence because it argues against their whole case. That is unless there was a global flood in 1980 that I’m not aware of.

All this does is expose the shallowness of YEC. They find one example of a sediment that forms quickly and they think this can be translated to each and every sediment. Do they really think this is how geology is done? Is a tuff made up of volcanic ash deposited the same was as chalk or the limestones made up of dead sea lilies?

3 Likes

This strikes me pointedly because just on Sunday along a river gravel bar I was finding mudstones, possible sandstone, lahar conglomerates, tuff, and other stuff that had all been laid down somewhere and eventually due to weathering ended up in pieces that came down the river. One piece was fascinating, a gabbro with attached tuff, which says the gabbro – which forms from basaltic lava that remains deep underground – was uncovered in a non-cataclysmic way, brought right to the surface, and then had a pyroclastic flow cover it (noone of which matches a global flood).

1 Like

At about 20,000 years ago, the last ice age reached its apogee, locking up water so that the oceans receded to their most recent lowest levels. From this time forward, glacial sheets sustained a fitful retreat, and global sea levels would rise to submerge sites of human activity, cut off land routes, and make islands where there was once continuous dry ground. The transformation had pervasive effect and subsequent gradual change punctuated by some dramatic events. One among many of these were the megafloods of the US pacific northwest which produced the scablands.

These megafloods happened when a huge lake being held back by ice was released as the glacial dam failed. There is uncertainty as to the number of floods, but the evidence suggests many dozens with decreasing volumes as glaciers diminished over a period of a few hundred years. This analysis is confirmed by separated volcanic tephra layers from successive ancient explosions of Mount St. Helens.

The dates for the Missoula floods have not been precisely nailed down. The last of them was about 16,000 ya. Mammoth skeletons have been found in the floods slackwater sedimentary layers. Note that YEC do NOT attribute these to Noah’s deluge, as they do with similarly buried dinosaur remains, instead going along with conventional geology, except of course the timing and frequency with their now you see it, now you don’t, ice age.

2 Likes

If memory serves, I’m a few hundred miles east of you just across the Oregon border. There are a ton of pretty spectacular geologic formations in the region, not to mention road cuts that lay bare all sorts of interesting histories.

1 Like

There was a book we used when I took volcanology with a title something like “Road Cut Geology of the Pacific Northwest”. I remember few details, but was amazed at how much geology is revealed in road cuts!
And not just roads; there is substantial geology revealed by cuts made for building dams as well, something the book devoted a chapter to.

BTW, some of the unknowns about the geology of a local cape were cleared up by a massive landslide on the coast – I wish I had pictures to show the numerous thousands of years of geology revealed, from old beaches to alluvial deposits to dunes to lava flows (both above and below water) to ash deposits from distant volcanoes.

1 Like

Shawn Willsey has a YouTube channel where he dissects random roadcuts, mostly in Idaho. I’ve watched a few and was thoroughly entertained (low bar though).

1 Like

If we take the Bible seriously, we must hold that history is a valid source of information. Claiming to accept “observational science” while rejecting historical sciences is not compatible with Christianity’s claims about the importance of historical events. Because we are finite, fallible, and fallen, our ideas of how things should have happened are not reliable. We must rely on the evidence to test ideas about how history works. For example, Marxism is not historically honest. Societies don’t follow simple patterns. Although certain trends are common (e.g., going bad, such as recorded in Judges, I and II Samuel, I and II Kings), the exact pattern is unpredictable. Nor are there simple repeating cycles, as “Enlightenment” thinkers often supposed. But knowing that God created all things and is in control, we can trust the evidence. Our interpretation isn’t perfect, but we can work at it and arrive at reasonable conclusions. But creation science does not look at the evidence and draw conclusions; it consists simply of arguing for a young earth no matter what the evidence shows. Rather that seeking to glorify God through good quality work, it falls into the Machiavellian error of thinking that the end justifies the means.

The value of road cuts and similar outcrops for understanding geology has been recognized for over 200 years. It’s claimed that William Buckland’s horse, upon seeing an outcrop, would stop and not go further unless you dismounted and examined the outcrop.

Chemical weathering is rather higher here in the southeastern US, so nice outcrops are often elusive. The rocks that can be seen near here, however, are gneisses with some schist and quartzite thrown in, and occasional amphibolite; sometimes it melted and produced patches of granite.

Gneiss requires high temperature and high pressure, with the pressure stronger in one direction to form. The gneiss contains sillimanite (named for Benjamin Silliman, a prominent old-earth creationist figure in early U.S. science). Sillimanite requires temperatures over 500 degrees C to form. Although it feels warm out there right now, it’s nowhere near 500. Sillimanite-containing rocks had to form several kilometers down and then reach the surface through erosion and uplift. A significant amount of time is needed to erode away the stuff above and raise those rocks to the surface. A flood cannot erode deeper than where the water flows to; invoking the flood does not account for their presence at the surface.

Producing directional pressure to make gneiss (or schist or phyllite or slate) is achieved by colliding two plates together. So some sort of rock with a diversity of silicate minerals experienced significant heat and pressure to turn it into gneiss as two plates collided.

Radiometric dating allows reconstruction of the history further back. The rock contains a mix of zircon ages. If the pre-metamorphic rock had been igneous, all of it cooling from magma or lava at basically the same time, the dates should be the same. But if the starting rock was sedimentary, containing pieces from various starting igneous rocks, then we should see a mix like what is observed. (This also means that the youngest zircon dates give a maximum age for the sedimentary rock, being the age of the youngest rocks that eroded to form the sedimentary rock. But there’s no guarantee just how fresh that igneous rock was when it eroded; the sedimentary rock might be somewhat younger.)

Can we trace what rocks eroded to form the sediment? Unsurprisingly, some of the zircon dates match zircon dates from more central North America. But other zircons match dates for Paraguay. The rocks under me, then formed from a mix of sand and mud eroding from North American rocks eroding to what’s now the west and eroding from small plates that broke off of what’s now south-central South America and collided to build a minicontinent that now makes up the east-central part of Georgia to Virginia.

Thus, we have a sequence of events:
Igneous rocks cool at various times, producing various radiometric dates.
Small plates break off South America, collide to form a minicontinent. Although the Iapetus Ocean starts wide enough to have different kinds of fossils on either side, eventually it is subducted away and the minicontinent (“Carolinia”) collides with North America. At the time, this is in mid-southern latitudes. Sediment eroding from both sides, along with bits of seafloor, got trapped in between these plates and packed into sedimentary rock. Behind Carolinia, the Rhaetic Ocean was shrinking as Iapetus had done. Eventually Gondwana collided, creating Pangea and squashing the local rocks further. Erosion and uplift then eventually brought these rocks to the surface.

If you look at rocks and sediment a county or two over from here, you get another part of the sequence of events in earth history.

3 Likes

Can’t resist some geology humor . . . .

“Oh, schist!”
“A-a, that’s not very gneiss.”
“You’re silly, man.”

That’s often overlooked in “flood geology”: if all the claimed features were eroded by rainfall, the amount of water required would have flooded the bottom ends of many large features before they could have eroded as deeply as they did.

And deeply, at that.

And did so slowly! We know what crystals and minerals look like when you bang rocks together rapidly, and those rocks don’t look that way – thus, no galloping plates.

1 Like

There is a series of books on roadside geology of each state that are good, and I carry the Texas one around on long car trips, as well as consult it for local sites. It goes over road cuts and formations seen from the major roads.

2 Likes

You anticipated my questions about this. Thank you.

1 Like