What might be the spiritual origins of YEC?

Actually the credit for that wording ought to go to @LM77 . The subject line I tapped out was much less subtle :laughing: and much more inflammatory. I definitely think Liam’s edit was an improvement.

1 Like

This is not so rare in the teachings of Jesus. But WHERE did Jesus speak of the devil working? Among the secular forces? No. Among the Roman conquerors? No. Among the tax collectors and sinners? No. It was in the religious establishment. If you pay close attention to the stories of the Bible that is where you see Satan working – among God’s chosen people. It is the most devoted and religious that we see the devil working hardest to corrupt.

Indeed. And the devil’s aim is for people to close their hearts, minds, ears and eyes so they no longer hear the voice of God, even when God is shouting to them from the heavens, and from the earth.

Exactly! And they shut the kingdom of heaven against people in this way.

…and…

But there is a rather awful familiarity to this. It is a strategy taught by Lenin driving the successful spread of communist revolution in the world. Where the idealists are kept in the dark regarding the ultimate purpose and objective of their idealistic causes.

That is indeed a big part of it. But another one is a lust/striving for power in the world. It is the ultimate cause of war in history no matter what other excuses are manufactured. …enemies are invented because once you get the machinery of war going, the opportunities for ceasing power are endless. And war makes it so easy to do evil to other people. The concentration camps were not just in the countries of the Axis powers.

And that is the problem with this whole way of thinking… looking for devils in your opponents. So the above in italics is just to demonstrate that… yes we can look at things that way too. But such a battle mentality is so easy for the devil to use… In general, I think that whenever you credit the devil in such things you give him power over you. Much better to keep ones mind focused upon the agency of God in the world, I think.

3 Likes

They would bristle to hear it presented thus. They more likely think, “we chose the tribe that thinks and believes correct truths.” But then with that commitment firmly in place, most everything fed them by that tribe gets a “pass” from any real fact-checking while everything else will be scrutinized for even the smallest fault (or if no fault is easily discernable, it can be written off as from tainted origin.)

5 Likes

I want to agree with you, but, I’m not sure this is true. Absolutely Jesus had an axe to grind with the pharisees, scribes, lawyers etc. But in terms of actually labelling demonic agency as such? Did He do that, apart from the times he cast demons out of the possessed? Genuine Q, I am still learning.

Don’t we all, though? :wink: I think that’s one of the difficulties in finding who to trust, because eventually we want to find people, news, sources, etc. that we don’t feel the need to constantly hold a magnifying glass to, because we don’t have that kind of time… especially those who haven’t been trained in analyzing claims, the time commitment would be monumental.

Thanks for sharing, that is important to think about. I have struggled with my own self-righteousness in this area, but I think it’s complicated by the fact that “looking for the devils in my opponents” overlaps quite a bit with genuine self-reflection and analysis of my former beliefs. When I look at something I believed or held to that I now consider to be wrong, it’s easy to just take that same label of “wrong” and hold it over everyone else I know who still holds that belief, especially those who are dogmatic about it. It’s easy to lose sight of what’s important. So thanks for the reminder…

3 Likes

Ok, a good answer in the negative, with regards to my original question.

I still really, really wonder what motivates some people who hold a wrong opinion, and not others, to set out to spread that opinion.

Just a chance juxtaposition of stupidity and vanity? No external agency involved?

Yes, but … some tribes welcome more self-critique than others (science - to the extent that we could compare that to a ‘tribe’ being an exemplary case where fact-checking skepticism is generally even as a badge of honor). Some tribes invite more of that sort of challenge within their own ranks, while others shun that more in favor of purifying and mustering the troops. The latter can be counted on to swallow and spread more falsehoods than most everyone else, I think.

[Of course every group (even science enthusiasts) will have their ‘sacred ground’ or holy-of-holies where something is -rightly or wrongly- going to be considerably privileged. I put forward that how big that area is and how much we insist on packing into it is not an insignificant differential between groups.]

2 Likes

Thank you. A first-hand and genuine perspective. Much appreciated :pray:.

2 Likes

Wrong!

The part in italics is a big YES!

The part you quote is not a negative, but a STOP! (I am agreeing with the other parts of your post which also sees how dangerous this is) Sure, I see plenty of reason to see the devil behind the YEC. PLENTY! The point of the last part is just that I don’t think this helps anything. So my answer to your question is not in any way a no. Quite the contrary, it is very much a YES. That is indeed my opinion. But the logic leads me right around in a circle to where I can see myself so easily becoming the one doing the devil’s work.

“Logic?” Sure there’s no other agency involved?

This is fine, but, what about actual scientists? I may be misconstruing your intent with that comment, but it reminds me of troubles I have had in the past.

Science vs scientism.

Many times I have tried to explain the difference, including to people very close to me.

People just don’t get it, and so, every scientist is condemned, and equated with Richard Dawkins, and scorned likewise. It’s not fun. So be it, l suppose.

Thanks for taking the time to pull all this together!

We are very much about the first and rejecting the second around here.

If I wrote something that seemed to conflict with that, let me know what it was. I don’t want to promote any confusion or wrong impressions.

2 Likes

If you mean to ask if I buy into the delusion of rationalism that logic can give you conclusions all by itself, the answer is no. Logic gives you nothing without accepting premises on faith first. For this reason logic is anything but a one way street. Nor do I buy into the delusion of certainty or the delusion that I know all of agencies involved even in my own thinking. Nevertheless I will insist that I am one of those agencies and will thus take responsibility for my own thinking because of it.

3 Likes

What?

I’m a horror and dark fantasy writer, and I would never claim that my stories are historical. That doesn’t mean they don’t have truth in them…

How do you define “fiction”? Because parables are fiction that speak truth.

Jesus was not talking about a literal group of ten virgins who were having oil trouble…

5 Likes

Yeah, you’re right about all that. I think I didn’t express myself well.
That truth is expressed through non-historical stories is different than the claim that truth is non-propositional.

2 Likes

I believe in a literal Satan.

That being said, I think the concept of Satan is a perfect summation of all human rebellion and wickedness: trying to make oneself God. This is not in the literal sense, of course. I don’t know too many people who believe that they can become God. But when we are selfish, when we put ourselves before others or we do what we want, we are making a statement. That statement is that we are the most important object. God.

This is really messy and I’m not terribly eloquent right now, likely due to a lack of sleep, but I have full confidence that you can extract what I’m trying to say despite my failing. :slight_smile:

Take care, friend.
-Joshua W.

3 Likes

That Satan should represent our own failings and rebellion against that which is greater makes perfect sense. But thinking of Satan as having a unified presence apart from us as a being in his own right that I would argue against. My puppy is bounding all over me as my wife has announced she is getting ready for our walk so I’ll leave it here for now. But there is more to say my friend.

I look forward to it. :slight_smile:

Give your puppy some love for me! I love dogs.

1 Like

When we assert our idea of truth in opposition to God’s Word – as the serpent does in the garden, contradicting God’s threat that the day our first parents ate the fruit they would die with his own word – we are claiming to be God. The essence of the first sin – the true original sin – is to seek to become “like God,” that is, to be the one who gets to establish what is true or false, right or wrong. This is why lying, which our culture now takes for granted, is really satanic.

“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6

This is a place for gracious dialogue about science and faith. Please read our FAQ/Guidelines before posting.