What it’s all for

I keep wanting to engage with what the title asks but when I read the OP I don’t find any linkage even though I loved the poetic meditation.

What I’ve wanted to say is that asking what it’s for smacks of utilitarianism but what makes life meaningful isn’t a means to something else. The purpose of life doesn’t have a simple goal, it is an infinite game as Carse uses that term in his book:

There are at least two kinds of games: finite and infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing the play .

  • Better watch out, the “Infinity Bogeyman” will show up to point out that there can’t be an infinite game because each player can only make one move at a time and that’s tantamount to a game of addition by ones to infinity, or something like that.
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This question (and/or its conjectured and convicted answers) strikes me as something that one can’t approach or examine directly. As in, it’s there in one’s ‘peripheral vision’ of life, but evaporates if you try to turn your gaze directly on it. I.e. The person busy doing life in any wholesome, working sort of way may paradoxically be in the midst of his/her life purposes even while they aren’t contemplating any such question directly.

Sure - we (Christians) can give glib or ‘scriptural’ answers in the form of some platitude that may contain remnants of truthiness somewhere in it, but those will tend to be lofty answers so far removed from our daily existence that we need more proximate answers to bridge the gap for us.

As far as terms like “infinite” go, in human discourse, when not trying to be mathematically technical about it, it will almost always just be innocent hyperbole. “Infinite” is simply our shorthand for stuff that is way beyond or above us. And finite is more my shorthand for that which seems graspable for me.

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Geez, what was I thinking? I take it all back no actual infinities, real or imagined, we’re actually involved.

But we did play an infinite game yesterday and it’s my wife, stepson, brother and niece. My stepson who hates most games actually had a good time. The way we play Giant Two there is only winning, not winning, not losing or losing each hand there is no final total or winner. Those outcomes are listed from best to worst but none is final. The winner of each hand gets the advantage of receiving the loser’s highest ranking card in the next hand while the winner gives the loser whatever card he can easily part with. But the loser does get to start the first play in the next hand which is also advantageous. Everyone does some of each until everyone agrees they’ve had enough someone has to go. I guess you could say play continues until we reach a limit of repetition becoming tedious.

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I agree completely. Life, whatever else it may be, is more than a puzzle to be solved.

I think such l answers amount to word pictures or poetry. Not laden with nuggets of truth but triggering realizations that do not distill neatly into just one verbal formula. I think the result can be illuminating even if not easily transferable.

Our words don’t capture the truth perhaps they allow the truth to capture us .

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What a vivid illustration!

It reminds me of Lewis’ observation that the most valuable things in life are rarely achieved by pursuing them directly, instead they come as a result of more mundane pursuits.

I’d call them “closed” and “open”.

For what it’s worth, I’ve always preferred open games.

Thanks for the kind words about my poem. The title of my post, however, is not a question. :blush:

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Adam, you’re imposing a lot on what I said.

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I’m disheartened, baffled and put off by the bickering you guys don’t seem to tire of. Isn’t following Jesus about becoming like Christ, bringing others to Christ and building up the body of Christ in love? How does bickering over theology serve either of those aims? Discussion, yes, but ongoing bickering and insulting one another? It isn’t something I want to have to deal with, yet the majority of the comments to my post have been you too bickering. If you want to do that, could you do it privately? I would appreciate that. I mean this constructively, doing my best to speak the truth in love. I hope you will take it that way.

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Note, i am quoting your entire post. I am not disrespecting you by “dog barking up trees”… plucking bits and pieces out of your quote.

What i find really interesting about this forum is that you guys are sooo demanding when it comes to dead accurate scientific method and yet the theology used is very very weak and no one seems to have a problem with that.

This is one of the simplest methods used in order to know that a particular world view is false. The internal and external tests fail very quickly when put under scrutiny because of exactly St Roymonds kinds of responses on these forums. He rarely references sound theology and the contradictions that arise because of this are indicators of the inability to reconcile false doctrine with sound biblical theology.

Whether or not individuals are willing to accept it, either one is Christian or not. If one is, then one must follow the Christian bible as ultimate source of authority.

St Roymond appears to me to preach the view here that the self revealing doctrines of the bible are not reliable or knowable because ONLY those who have formal training in ancient culture and languages may understand the internal biblical interpretations.

Bible concordances and reliable commentaries prove his claim there false. We can cross reference almost all biblical theology among multiple internal writers. The scriptures do not need imterpreting…God has already done that for us through His writers and writings…dont believe me? Check the concordance references in your bible margins then show me where theology you dissagree with is wrong using them. I am not aware of examples where bible claims are shown to be wrong and the observarional scientific interpretation right using binlical concordance references and commentaries. The finding of the Hittites empire is but 1 example where the reverse is true.

ANYWAY…moving back to the O.P

Im not a believer in the idea that God gives “ongoing” visions/special revelations to anyone any more.

My reason for this…

The bible cannon is Gods revelation of Himself to us. It is our authority, not modern interpretation. Anyone adding to the scriptures, including unbiblical interpretations, is going against the warning given in Revelation 22

18I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book. 20He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!…
Berean Standard Bible

Thats my opinion, it may be on the conservative side, however, there is never a reason not to put safety first (ie its better to obey than to sacrifice as Samuel told King Saul)

Hear! Hear!

I removed all the posts above where @adamjedgar and @St.Roymond were responding to each other, and put those in a private thread of their own.

Meanwhile (since this kind of stuff tends to continue), Kevin, you can help such discernments happen even faster by flagging posts that you feel are just more of the same or are unhelpful. There should be a grey flag button underneath any post - or the three dots might make the flag button visible. That calls it to moderator attention and one of us should be able to respond in a reasonable time.

Thanks for your questions and contributions. Hopefully you get some exchanges of value too and not just disheartening stuff. But keep in mind in any forum around controversial topics, there will always and probably necessarily be disagreements and a need to call people on stuff too. We’ll just try to stay on topic as we do so, and as you suggest - not devolve into ad hominem.

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Years ago I saw an ardent cessationist draw a bold arrow of commonality with a charismatic on whether that thing is called an illumination from the Spirit or a revelation.

In a cessationist reformed systematic theology text by Beeke, I saw a similar wobble. I could look up the passage if you are interested.

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I couldn’t agree more.

I’ve been looking over my own contributions to this forum over the past few days (mostly late at night when I couldn’t sleep) and for my own part I’ve been disheartened, baffled and put off by the extent to which I’ve been getting caught up in all the bickering you speak of here myself.

Science is supposed to be something that you do, not something that you argue about. It’s something that’s done in laboratories, not in debating chambers. It’s hands-on and practical, not airy-fairy and philosophical.

I’m sick of waffle about methodological naturalism. I’m tired of endless arguments about operational versus historical science, assumptions, interpretations, presuppositions, worldviews, Kant, Popper and so on. I’m fed up of talking round and round in circles with people who talk the hind legs off a donkey about the philosophy of science but who never post a single equation, graph, laboratory experiment or measurement.

I recently acquired a book titled “Turning Science into Things People Need” by David M Giltner. It’s an interesting book that reminded me in a fresh way what science is all about. After I’d read it, I decided to revive my interest in electronics that I’d had as a teenager and in the first few years after I left university. Actually tinkering, doing experiments and making things is a far better and more fulfilling use of anyone’s scientific knowledge and understanding than trying to talk sense into people who give the impression that they don’t know what an oscilloscope is and can’t tell one end of a soldering iron from the other, but who nonetheless think that they are somehow qualified to teach in their churches about the subject.

For what it’s worth, my view of Christianity and the Bible is pretty much the same as my view of science. I view it as a very hands-on and practical faith. That’s why I’m a continuationist and not a cessationist. To me, believing the Bible means putting it into practice, seeing what I can learn about how to live my life and relate to others and to God and how to walk by faith in the same way that people of Bible times did. It’s not a matter of having the right doctrines about the distant past; it’s about how you live your life and walk with God in the present.

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It’s not an either/or issue, but a certain both/and.

Keener had a great comment in response to those who turn the Sermon on the Mount into a strict ethical homily. I posted it on the forum some time ago and can go back and look it up if you are interested.

That’s what I keep trying to get through to you, but you insist on forcing science onto the scriptures. I prefer to deal with the text in its original setting.

This is contrary to scripture. Jesus told the Apostles as a group that the Spirit would lead them into all truth – it’s not a promise to anyone but them or possibly their successors (and if it was only to them then the Spirit was silenced the moment the last Apostle died). Paul taught us that the Spirit gives teachers to the church as gifts, which is what we see in the church Fathers as they dealt over and over with false ideas of Who Christ is.

That’s a standard warning added to the end of apocalyptic writing, and it only pertains to that one book. In terms of Revelation we know this because Revelation wasn’t always at the end; in some early collections it was put after the Gospel of John and the three Letters; in one manuscript we looked at these were followed by Luke-Acts, then came Paul’s letters.

Historically the Apocalypse was the last book accepted into the canon, and was only accepted because so many Christians in the first and second centuries read it and saw it describing what they could see happening around them.

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Quite so.

The Orthodox have an interesting take, that doing theology requires both knowing God and knowing about God. And as far as knowing about God, they make few assertions, preferring rather to detect error and negate it. The Nicene Creed is about the biggest piece of assertion they ever made; even at Chalcedon the core was a list of things that aren’t correct about Christ.

So the issue of “believing the right things” isn’t that big in the East; they just want to avoid believing wrong things.

I actually looked that up. Turns out I’m a continuationist, but primarily because I have experienced several of the listed gifts and observed a couple of others.

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Adam had said in one of his comments (I guess it is one that was moved) that my poem seemed to be saying that God IS evil, or could BE evil. I don’t remember precisely how worded it. But I wanted to respond.

Adam, I can tell you that I did not mean that God WAS evil.

But what it means to BE evil or to BE good is an interesting question. I don’t think evil and good are things. In a sense, they don’t actually exist. When Jesus rebuked Peter, saying, “Get thee behind me Satan, for you are a hindrance to me. For your mind is not on the things of God, but of man,” I don’t believe he was saying that Peter WAS evil.

Did he mean, though, that Peter was possessed? In the first sentence, he sure seems to be talking to Satan, which would seem to mean either that Peter WAS Satan or that Peter was possessed by Satan. Yet, the 2nd sentence seems to be directed at Peter, defining the evil as being what Peter’s mind was on. And he provided only 2 options for that: the things of God or the things of man.

And he didn’t say, as he did say when ridding people of evil spirits, anything like “come out of him.” On the contrary, the 2nd sentence seems quite clearly to place the responsibility on Peter himself. With all of us, the focus of our minds is our choice. Our cultures tend to have many mechanisms in them that work to train our minds to focus on certain things that benefit our societies, which are often things that benefit those few in our societies with power. Knowing that the focus of your mind—and by extension, the things you desire—is each individual’s choice tends not to benefit those few. For their interest is worldly power and worldly power—be it political, military, economic, philosophical psychological or even theological—depends on controlling many people.

Yet, if the evil was that Peter was not choosing the right focus for his mind—not choosing what is good in God’s eyes, which in the context of Jesus’ statement was Jesus being arrested, ridiculed, tortured and crucified—what does Satan have to do with it?

Was Satan literally entering Peter’s mind and turning his focus away from God?

Well, what Peter had done was express his concern for Jesus’ welfare. Peter was surely a person who cared about Jesus and who was prone to emotion-driven declarations, as when he declared he would never deny Jesus only to deny him 3 times, just as Jesus said he would.

So could it be that Satan did not cause Peter to focus on Jesus’ welfare, but rather that he spoke spontaneously on his emotional reaction to what Peter had just told him? IOW, was this not something caused by an evil force taking control of Peter, but rather by his innate nature? Or are these distinctions that, in our perception and thought seem real, but are not actually real?

I go back to the 2 options Jesus gave for the focus of Peter’s mind: The things of God vs the things of man. And then I have to consider Jesus’ response to the young rich man who addressed Jesus as “good teacher.” Jesus replied, “Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone.”

It would seem that Jesus has defined evil in its entirety. I put it this way in my poem: “…isn’t evil that which is not good?” And Jesus, in his rebuke of Peter, defined good as “the things of God.”

But if this is the case, then the way one can BE evil is by not having ones mind on God all the time. Yet, this is not what we normally think of as BEING. And I would argue that DOING evil is not BEING evil because if it were, who could be saved? We all do evil, for evil can be subtle and seem like good, as I would say Peter’s concern for Jesus was. If Jesus had responded to Peter by saying, “I understand your concern, Peter, but this is the way it must be so that God’s all of God’s people can be reconciled with him and all of his Creation can be healed,” who reading that would have thought, “Whoa, Jesus, are you going to let Peter get away with such evil thoughts!!??”

I think almost nobody would think that. The first time I read that passage, I though, “wow, that is harsh!” I got what he was saying in the 2nd sentence, but the first sentence just seemed over the top and kind of mean to Peter. My thinking now is that Jesus responded this way because evil starts in such subtle ways. We actually cannot perceive it at its root, because it is not just the focus of our mind, but more fundamentally the desires of our heart.

Yet, all of this concerns evil in this world and the evil that human beings do. What about God?

Well, if both evil and good have to do with the desires of our hearts and the focus of our minds, good being those being entirely on God and evil being anything else (that which is not good), and God being the only good, how can God be focused on something that is not good? For wouldn’t he then be a house divided?

Thus, if God created evil, it would have to be to serve his good purposes. God would not BE evil, but would be using evil.

That is the assertion of my poem. And this is not anything new, for God uses evil for good all through the Bible.

I think this is only difficult for us to—the idea that God intended evil to come into the world—because our experience of evil is so negative. And this is because we see such a small part of what is occurring, has occurred and will occur. We see things that happen to us and to others as being either good or bad in and of themselves. Yet, everything that happens in the world is part of the vast river of actions and consequences flowing forward in time. If you follow any one chain of actions and consequences, you will find that any one thing that seems good to you has consequences later on that seem bad and vice versa.

We don’t see this without a lot of learning and contemplation (and even that only brings us a glimpse of it), but God sees all of it in all of its details.

This is why my poem is concerned with our creativeness. If Jesus had not rebuked Peter, perhaps Peter would have begun to think that Jesus, as great a teacher and master as he was, was wrong and that Peter should take it upon himself to prevent Jesus from getting himself crucified. If Peter had done that, that would have been a creative act. And if he had succeeded (which, of course, God would not have permitted), the consequences for humanity would have been the worst possible. And that illustrates the severity of what he said, and why Jesus rebuked him so harshly.

We are creating all the time, with everything we think, feel and do.

And this is why my poem has the question, “how do we know what we are creating?”

You are perceiving my poem through a certain lens that produces the reactions you have had. I hope that this long comment helps you to understand better the lens through which I was looking when I wrote it.

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I am reading an intro to covenant theology and found this lovely quote, emphasis is mine:

In the covenantal thinking we find in Scripture, there is no such thing as true knowledge without love and obedience. To know God is actually, in the Hebrew language, to acknowledge God-that is, to walk after God in the way that a servant walked behind a king in a solemn procession, recognizing his sovereignty. One of the rich biblical terms here is hesed, or “covenant loyalty.” Because such a theology does not arise out of abstract concepts and supposedly universal principles, but out of the historical fact of an actual covenant constitution, it is simultaneously theoretical and practical.

Michael Horton, Introducing Covenant Theology

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“Satan” wasn’t really used as a name at that point, so Jesus most likely meant it in the standard Hebrew/Aramaic sense of “adversary”.

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