Then maybe… Job, Jonah, Proverbs, Psalms, 1 Samuel, Hebrews, Philippians, Luke,
Then I suppose there are many with much less significance to me…
And I confess there are a couple which I am wary of or have some dislike for… Revelation, and 1 Timothy.
The only book in the Bible I have any dislike for is Joshua (which I see as immoral). It’s message of religious intolerance contradicts the core teachings of the Hebrew Bible as expounded by Hillel
I think you can have two options to view it in a positive light if that’s what you’re thinking:
I take the second view, though only because i dont feel bold enough to go against thousands of years worth of canonical tradition
Currently my favourite books are:
1- Jonah
2- Ecclesiastes
3- Psalms
4- Genesis
5- Isaiah
6- Ezekiel
7- Habakkuk
8- Samuel
Like Reggie I will give my thoughts on what so is important in these books I like so much…
Revelations is for me the most fascinating book to decipher. It is the only book that tells us of how Heaven looked before the Fall. Jesus revealed the history of to John and John gave it to us.
Revelation is too much like an inkblot in which people can see anything. I certainly do not suggest removing it and do not say it has no value. But I think we should be very very wary of it and when someone is getting too much of their theology from this book then it probably has very little to do with Christianity.
Yes, you are right, it is nothing to do with with Modern Christian doctrine. But it tells of the reason that God created this material universe that the Early Christians understood. But this knowledge has been lost, and this is why no-one who calls themselves Christian today will listen to the Spirit of Truth that Jesus promised.
In this you reveal your true colors at last! The rejection of Christianity. You are welcome to whatever religion you want. But we will defend Christianity against those seeking only to subvert and destroy because they do not see the value of what Christianity teaches. I hardly think that the spirit of truth is you or anybody else seeking to teach things contrary to what Jesus taught. I will fight for science, secular rule and religious freedom also. But what Christianity has offer in that context is of great value also, and those pushing other religions should do so honestly in the name of their own religion.
Dear Mitchell, You are showing the true colors of a modern Christian. You will see that even bible quote I use in my posts come from either Jesus or John (Jesus’ favorite). Whereas the typical response today is with Paul, because I they cannot seem to reconcile the three major points Jesus made:
Can your Christianity solve these three simultaneous equations that Jesus presents?
Thank you. Learning from everything, Bible, science, and history, is worthy goal for every Christian. Being stuck in the middle ages with all its filth and ignorance is nothing to recommend itself to anyone.
Yes you use and twist the things said in the Bible to teach something entirely different.
Yes Christianity reconciles these passages just fine without any of your dogmas of universalism and reincarnation.
Let us begin by reading the actual text rather than what you dictate it says.
Matthew 5:21-26 21 “You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire. 23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
Matthew 5:43-48 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Sins are self-destructive habits which grow like a cancer to destroy our free will and everything of value within us. So we cannot keep anything of them, not even a single one of them.
Luke 15 4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost, until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost.’ 7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
As for the prodigal son in Luke 15:11-32, this is a bit long so I shall let people look it up for themselves. Suffice it to say that NOWHERE in this text does it say “Not one will be lost!” It only says “more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance” and that is all. Indeed the message of Christianity is that it is all about repentance and never about entitlement. Your effort to cut Christianity down to a little cult ruled over by yourself excluding everyone who will not buy into your teaching of universalism has FAILED!
And now with a little context John 3: 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.” 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
I cannot be surprised that the one thing common in modern Christianity that you latch onto are the elements of Gnosticism with its gospel of salvation by knowledge. All the ideological cults love that stuff because they just want to change the content of the required beliefs to those of their own. But the quoted text does not say what you claim. Not even close. The passage is not about requirements for salvation which Jesus addresses in Matthew 19 (which I will put below) quite clearly, but about the motivation for God sending His Son to the world. God does indeed want people to believe in Jesus so that they might be saved, but it is not the intent of the passage to say that a belief in particular teachings is either sufficient or necessary for salvation.
Matthew 19 16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which?” And Jesus said, “You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him, “All these I have observed; what do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions. 23 And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Salvation comes not from what we believe and do but from God.
Yes, I agree, but I do not agree that Matthew 19 trumps Matthew 5, both are still valid. Salvation came from Jesus (for everyone) and without it we cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. But God still has requirements stated in both Matthew 5 and 19.
It is a common tactic in twisting the Bible to distract people from the what the Bible says when it directly addresses the question in order shift attention to another place where it is actually talking about something completely different, so you can try to make it sound like the Bible says something else. So I am sorry but yes, when the Bible directly addresses the question of the requirements of salvation in Matthew 19, it most certainly does trump other passages where it is talking about something different.
So I would like to get you on record. The 10’s of billions who have died since Jesus’ died without believing in Him are in Hell?
We have been through this before, when you tried the same argument to justify your belief in reincarnation. I reject this Gnostic gospel of salvation by correct belief completely. Whether you know the name of Jesus is irrelevant. Jesus, God, and salvation are not the property of Christianity and never were. The solution to this problem you are pointing to is not reincarnation OR univeralism, but the rejection of this idea that salvation depends on knowing the right things. What you know is irrelevant.
Salvation is the work of God. I think Christianity and Bible are important tools in God’s medical bag, but I think it is foolish to imagine that God is limited to such tools. Yeah yeah, I know. Jesus said “nobody comes to the Father except through me.” But Jesus did not say, nobody gets to heaven without knowing the name of “Jesus” and the teachings of Christianity. Nope. Jesus said no such thing. And when you are Trinitarian like me, then not getting to the Father except through Jesus is a simple tautology - because Jesus and the Father are one. So that doesn’t prove anything.
So… for the record… I don’t think all people who died without knowing anything about Christianity are in hell. AND I don’t think all the people who were known as devout Christians went to heaven when they died. So how do I determine who went to heaven and who went to hell? I don’t. As Paul explained in Romans chapter 10, faith doesn’t even ask that question.
So maybe you want to go back through the discussion above because maybe some of the things you have reacted to were nowhere but in your own head. Defending the value of Christianity is NOT the same thing as claiming that Christianity is the only thing of value. But just because I am not pushing any kind of Christian exclusivity doesn’t mean I am ever going to be interested in universalism or reincarnation… sorry.
Mine in the OT are Genesis, Psalms, Proverbs and Hosea and Amos. In the NT is Romans, Acts, Ephesians and Revelation.
Dear Mitchell,
In your attack on me so far, you have made very many accusations of my motives and my heritage and this is a common, visceral reaction that I receive from many Christians when I hint that “all will be saved.” Universalism is not a religion or a doctrine, it is a hope that by loving our enemies, God will save them too. How can this concept be accused of not being Christ-like?
Yes, I am guilty for searching the Bible for all the evidence that demonstrates God is Good and that He gives every one of His children the same opportunities He has given me. Guilty as charged.
This started with your accusation that I and those who call themselves Christians today would not listen to the Spirit of Truth because we are not interested in whatever beliefs other religions could use Revelation to justify. I have no idea what usage of Revelation triggered your response/attack. I only know that you have been pushing universalism and reincarnation for quite a while. I have said many many times before, universalism is within the spectrum of Christian belief, but I and others have explained that reincarnation is certainly not – but a rejection of universalism is also part of that spectrum as you well know. And by the way, my particular wariness of Revelation is largely inspired by how much the Jehovah Witnesses like to use that book.
You also made an attack on Paul claiming that his teachings were inconsistent with the teachings of Jesus, when the reality was only that the greater theological clarity of Paul made it more difficult for you to twist the words of Jesus into supporting your beliefs. I responded by showing that this usage of Jesus words were not warranted and thus the inconsistency was pure fabrication. To be sure the Christian religion is founded upon the teachings of both Jesus and Paul, and we have more reason to see the Spirit of Truth in the ministry of Paul than in the book of Revelation. There are other religions like Islam which choose a different combination such as Jesus and Mohammed. I certainly believe in the freedom of religion and if you want a combination like Jesus and Shawn_Murphy, then you are quite welcome to that. But there is no denying that this forum is focused on reconciling Christianity with science and while your contribution is not without value, I don’t think anybody here is all that interested in leaving Christianity for your religion. And thus attack on Christianity is less appreciated.
What a great thread idea! My current picks (though tomorrow they could change):
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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