Ah so you believe God and angels are just things in a parallel physical dimension. I see.
There are falsehood which are demonstrably wrong, and there are things which are simply experienced differently because they depend on what is inside of you… your beliefs, character, and desires. Most religious stuff tends to fall in the latter category, including God, angels, and other spirits – because unlike you I don’t believe these are just physical things in a parallel physical dimension.
No, you don’t see. God is dimensionless, immeasurable, pure spirit. There are other nonphysical dimensions that we also label spiritual, because… they are not physical in our spacetime.
What you believe may be subjective, and wrong, but that does not change the immutable truth.
The truth about God is subjective. Huh.
Can’t see what you don’t write.
I would go with the second two but not the first. I generally don’t agree to making God less in any way whatsoever. But spirit in general and God in particular is definitely experienced according to your own internal state – your faith, your beliefs, your desires, your character, etc… subjective – not measurable and not controllable – not objective.
I see… so you believe in nonphysical “dimensions” and “spiritual” is just a label for things which you think might be physical somewhere else like parallel dimensions. … not seeing much difference from how I just summed you up in my last post.
Here is how I see things… Reality on the largest scale is spiritual and it is subjective because there are no overlying measures or mathematical structures such as space and time, but is instead highly responsive to our beliefs and desires. But within that greater spiritual reality, God has created a structure of space and time called the physical universe and everything a part of that structure is thus governed by the natural laws which are a part of that structure. It is possible but I have no reason to believe that God created any other universes or parallel dimensions – perhaps God would say they are none of my business even if He had created them. Thus everything not a part of the physical structure of space-time (where the laws of nature make things objective because they do not care what you believe and desire) are spiritual and these are subjective because in this greater reality of the spirit what you believe and desire does matter.
Definitely! The most purely spiritual is the most subjective – I would even say infinitely subjective, often like a mirror reflecting something of ourselves when we look at Him. Nothing is more diverse than the experiences of God by different people. Very few people agree about what “the truth about God” consists of exactly. It is part of His infinite nature and ability to relate to everyone.
It’s one thing for you to LOVE the way you think about things… but really, my good sir, to think you can “lay-down-the-law” about how others think about the very same things is not only unseemly, but a little futile.
Is it your intention to define a new Christian denomination with all of your qualifications? Or just some kind of Jonesboro retreat?
You are just playing silly word games there, as you have before. Saying that God is dimensionless does not diminish him in any way. That is like saying that because he is ‘endless’ in his wisdom or ‘peerless’ in his other attributes that he is somehow reduced.
God has substance. Huh. His many attributes are substantial, like his wisdom and power, but nothing you are going to take a piece of and put in a box.
…not to mention hubristic.
disagree. I would say instead that God is not only dimension-full but of infinite dimension.
I disagree that dimensionless is like these other words you compare it too, any more than loveless, or timeless, or motionless, or powerless. Endless like limitless is to say that God is without limits not without something positive. So I am disagreeing with you that dimension and time represents limits rather than something positive.
Yes the God I believe in definitely has substance. But everything coming from God is given by Him not taken from Him.
This is generally the case in the spiritual. Taking things from someone or something only happens in the physical universe because everything is part of the same mathematical space-time structure and subject to the rules by which things change and happen – rules which you can use and exploit to take take things from others.
That is the difference between the physical and the spiritual. Science is excellent in laying down laws which are simply foolish to ignore. But with spiritual stuff it is indeed futile, unseemly, and even foolish to be laying down any laws about how others should think.
No I will leave that to you since you are obviously the one thinking about it.
You are trying to make PHYSICAL rules about a presumed METAPHYSICAL reality. There is no way to test such rules.
When? I did no such thing – quite the opposite. I explained that the physical is defined by this mathematical space-time structure with rules that care nothing about what we want or believe. The spiritual on the other hand, has not such mathematical space-time structure and it is very responsive to what we want and believe.
I certainly don’t use the word “metaphysical” in the way that you do. For me metaphysics is just the philosophical study of the nature of reality. You seem to be using the word for something like “spiritual,” which seems like a bizarre usage to me.
Are angels physical, or metaphysical? I certainly vote that they are non-physical, aka metaphysical in their manifestation.
Next: You insist that the soul is physical, and not metaphysical. But I don’t agree with that, even if souls are not immortal.
Side Note:
It is a dubious fact or non-fact that God made souls to be mortal or immortal… and since the whole point of the Christian life is to qualify for immortality, it is - again - a quandary more metaphysical than physical.
Angels are non-physical, aka spiritual - in every way. It is Dale who is suggesting they are physical in some other dimension.
No, I insist that the soul is nonexistent. There is no such thing as a magical thingie inserted into bodies to make them alive or anything moving around from body to body. There is only the spirit created by our choices and imperishable according to Paul.
Incorrect. It is the whole point of Christianity that we can never qualify and immortality is not what we are aiming for anyway. What we hope for is eternal life in a relationship with God – that is an eternal existence which is worthwhile. Others are promised an eternal existence which is considerably less than desirable.
It is only a discussion about the nature of reality which is metaphysical.
They can make themselves visible to our eyes and audible to our ears, so that implies some kind of physicality, don’t it.
I am going to have to agree with @mitchellmckain on that one. We never qualify – it’s a gift. The relationship is what it’s all about, and the joy in communion with family (and Family). But it starts here – I am already adopted and already experiencing existential joy and delight in God, and in what I have been given and am still being given – it’s not just my future secure hope.
Nope. That buys into false premises that the spiritual is less real, ephemeral, shadowy, mental, unsubstantial, intangible, transparent, invisible, etc… What we know for certain from the Bible 1 Cor 15 is that the spiritual (when alive or resurrected) is imperishable, more powerful, made of the stuff of heaven, and (at least in our case) comes after the physical. When the spirit is dead. however, it can be shadowy, ghostly and such. But when alive (connected with God), the spiritual is more real and capable in every way and it is the physical which is less real by comparison – a temporary coordination of particles like the way images on a tv screen is a coordination of pixels.
Yes. Life is more than just existence. Life is growth and learning. The physical universe is quite big and promises a considerable amount of growth and learning. But once our connection with the physical ends then we need a relationship with the infinite creator of the universe. Then with no end to what God has to give, growth and learning – life not just existence – can continue forever.
Because God has given us so much in the physical universe, many experience life to the fullest already – exploring all the opportunities already available to us. We all have self destructive habits, but not all in the same measure. And so while for some all seems great and they see no need for God, for others the value of life drains away much more quickly, more desperately needing a connection with God to even make it through the day. For others it may simply be misfortune that tips the balance. But regardless of fortune, in the end, it is like the law gravity, where everything comes down eventually – call it the law of sin if you like. And so our need for God is twofold – not only because He is the source of life, but because He is the only one who can remove our sins (something which is not possible without our cooperation).
No the spiritual is more real.
So you believe people in other dimension should be called angels… LOL What a hoot!
enough of this nonsense for today…
They weren’t hooting.
You are misquoting me. Guess what that says about your arguments.
O.M.G.!!!
Its no wonder it takes forever to get thru these things. I immediately accept the phrasing of a GIFT. It doesnt change my position in the least:
Whether God starts with a soul already immortal… or starts with onr that he later treats as immortal is all the same to me.
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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