What is the scientific attitude? Can it be applied to matters of faith?


(Mitchell W McKain) #21

This is a classic misuse of scriptures, and frankly much like a street person demanding that people do what he says because the lunatic equates himself with God. But Proverbs doesn’t say “bibical worldview” that is you editing the text to replace the words of the Bible with your own words. And then you also cut the text off in the middle of the sentence.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,
and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight.

No doubt you think you can say everything better than God don’t you, changing God into nothing more than a personal tool of rhetoric. Where is your fear of the Lord? Where is your honesty?


(Wookin Panub) #22

oops…wrong verse. I always do that. I meant, (Proverbs 1:7) “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.”


(Mitchell W McKain) #23

Theology is just opinion.

I brought us back to the original unedited text of the Bible.


(Wookin Panub) #25

Sounded like philosophy


(Wookin Panub) #26

(Proverbs 3:5–6) “5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.”


(Mitchell W McKain) #27

Changes nothing! Proverbs 1:7 doesn’t say “biblical worldview” either.

Yes… a lot of the Bible does sound like philosophy. Is that one of the reason why you feel a need to change the words those of your own? Your version sounds more like politics.


(Wookin Panub) #28

A biblical worldview contains a presupposition that we should ALWAYS begin with the bible.
I am doing exactly that what the verse calls me to do

Yes… a lot of the Bible does sound like philosophy. Is that one of the reason why you feel a need to change the words those of your own? Your version sounds more like politics.

Let me rephrase. I meant your empty philosophy. Do you have scripture to back up what you believe?


#29

Ok you now have I suppose an English translation of the Bible in front of you. You read said Bible and decide that it says X. I also read the same Bible and decide based on what it contains that it says Y. Now I know you are going to say that X must be correct :wink:, but HOW do you know that? I say you are applying YOUR judgement to what is read and that is the outside source you use to determine truth. Prove me wrong if you can.


(Wookin Panub) #30

That’s easy. What does (Proverbs 1:7) mean? “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.”


#31

Nothing as far as an answer to my question goes. I could respond with “A journey of 1000 miles begins with one step”, but it does nothing to answer the question “Did you follow the right path?” We both begin at the same point, but why do we end up at different locations?


(Wookin Panub) #32

The bible gives that answer. I hold to a higher view of scripture than any OEC, which is why we come out at different points. I am a 5-point, High Calvinists (not to be confused with hyper Calvinism) and recognize that all of us have our traditions, including Calvinists. I go to where the text leads me and try to use as little as, if not any human tradition as possible when interpreting scripture.

I love science, as well as other human fields we study, but when we don’t begin with a biblical worldview, a worldview which accounts for all preconditions for intelligibility. We will find ourselves in a vicious circle of logic.

So either way, if x or y is the answer will only prove my worldview to be true, because only the biblical worldview can give an account for the laws of logic.


(Mitchell W McKain) #33

Incorrect. That is not what the verse says. Once again you are editing the Bible.

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.

If it did say such nonsense as you claimed then it would only recommend that we put the Bible in the garbage can, but it does not…

  1. A medical doctor who begins with the Bible is a BAD doctor and should be sued for malpractice.
  2. A computer repair man who begins with begins with the Bible is wasting your time doing things that he is not being paid for and so people will stop going to him for help with their computer. If he is going to begin with the Bible then he should change his business to the religion racket.
  3. A teacher who begins with the Bible is a a BAD teacher who is abusing their position to evangelize and indoctrinate children instead of doing the job he is paid to do.

So let’s remove your very very very bad editing of the text and see how to follow the Bible properly. We start by putting the verse back in context.

Proverbs 1: 1 The proverbs of Solomon, son of David, king of Israel:
2 That men may know wisdom and instruction,
understand words of insight,
3 receive instruction in wise dealing,
righteousness, justice, and equity;
4 that prudence may be given to the simple,
knowledge and discretion to the youth—
5 the wise man also may hear and increase in learning,
and the man of understanding acquire skill,
6 to understand a proverb and a figure,
the words of the wise and their riddles.
7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge;
fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Oh yeah… now this makes more sense. Still no mention of your nonsense about “ALWAYS begin with the Bible.” Instead this is explaining the purpose of the proverbs of Solomon, which as this explains he wrote to help people to deal with others in righteousness, justice, and equity… with prudence, discretion and making an effort through listening to others in order increase in learning and acquire skills. And all this is summed up with this idea that the fear of the lord is the beginning of knowledge – why? Because it is all about understanding that you are not the center of the universe and and thus knowledge has to be acquired from others who have understanding you do not have. Thankfully with medical doctors, repair technicians, and teachers, we have a system in place which requires people to study and learn from others before they can offer such services. It all goes to show that much has changed since this was written.

You may call the Bible empty philosophy, but I think it is a vast improvement over your habit of editing the Bible to teach a bunch of nonsense. As for using scripture to back up what I believe, that is something which I do constantly and I do it without editing the text to make it sound like it says something completely different.


(Wookin Panub) #34

You may call the Bible empty philosophy

No, I call your criticism of me empty philosophy.


(Wookin Panub) #35

A medical doctor who begins with the Bible is a BAD doctor and should be sued for malpractice.

A doctor who believes a biblical worldview that ALL life is precious and a gift from God will not be an abortionist etc… and is the only rational for defending the dignity of life.

A computer repair man who begins with begins with the Bible is wasting your time doing things that he is not being paid for and so people will stop going to him for help with their computer. If he is going to begin with the Bible then he should change his business to the religion racket.

A repairman has no rational for his knowledge unless he rely’s on a consistent God who provides a consistent worldview of a set of rules for training and practicing in an albeit constantly changing universe

A teacher who begins with the Bible is a a BAD teacher who is abusing their position to evangelize and indoctrinate children instead of doing the job he is paid to do.

Teaching the children to respect authority, elders and leaders. Teaching children that they are not evolved rearranged pawn scum with no purpose, no rhyme nor reason, because they were fearfully and wonderfully made with a purpose, in God’s image, which is the only rational why we shouldn’t lie, steal etc…rather than teach them illusions like math, because without God we could not know that math or for that matter morality is true

So let’s remove your very very very bad editing of the text and see how to follow the Bible properly. We start by putting the verse back in context.

It is amazing how your traditions blind you to the teaching of that verse.


(Phil) #37

7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Certainly this verse urges us to have spiritual and intellectual humility, and many verses throughout the Bible echo that message. To me, it fits in well with what was described in the opening post as having a scientific attitude, one that is open to new ideas and learning new truths. Dunning -Kroger may have quantified it somewhat, but the principle of “knowing what you don’t know” was apparent to Solomon. The warnings against pride and the value of humility are common themes throughout the Bible, perhaps with the hope that with repetition comes learning.


(Wookin Panub) #38

Certainly this verse urges us to have spiritual and intellectual humility to?


(Phil) #39

Unlike our modern division of realms of life into artificial areas, I suspect the original reader saw this and other proverbs as applicable to all aspects of life, when applied with wisdom.
Do you see it otherwise?


(Wookin Panub) #40

That unless we fear God we cannot even come close to knowing wisdom. The unbeliever can be wise, but is he wise based on a knowledge aside from God or is he just inconsistently following, not his own worldview but a biblical one?
(Romans 1:10) “For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.”

The question is, what does fear mean? In the Bible, the word translated “fear” can mean several things; terror, respect, reverence. Terms meant for the living God.


(Roger A. Sawtelle) #41

What I believe is that if you do not put God first in your life, before human theologies and philosophies, then your life is in vain. I am not in a position to judge you, that is God’s responsibility, but if you are interested in my opinion it appears that you have put flawed human opinion over God’s Truth in Jesus Christ.


(Mitchell W McKain) #42

It is certainly urging us to START with intellectual humility… that is the beginning of knowledge, because we can only acquire knowledge by listening to others or taking the time to test things out of course. To be sure we can insist on learning everything by ourselves but we are not going to get very far by reinventing every wheel – that is not a smart way to do things. So… Proverbs 1:7 is not urging us to waffle like wet noodles with never any confident knowledge and convictions ever. It is just saying it is wise to START by listening and learning from others. At least that way we will discover the much wider frontier of human knowledge instead of being limited to our own personal childhood frontier of ignorance.

As for the spiritual humility part? For me at least there may be no end to that one. I cannot speak for others but I know no confidence in that regard and don’t know if I ever will. And… I have seen very few in whom confidence with regards to spirituality is believable. For me at least, spiritual humility rules.