Thanks, Bill for the reply, I appreciate you taking the time to do so.
My bad for using some non-standard terminology–what I meant by “expansive pressure” was the kinetic energy of gases you correctly name which makes it want to expand.Also, I understand that gas doesn’t expand simply because it’s in a vacuum–didn’t mean to imply that, my bad if I did. Kinetic energy is indeed the force that makes gas expand, as you make so clear.
I agree with you that “Once the density of a gas exceeds a given value the gravational attraction will overcome the kenetic energy”. However, to me reaching such a state of density is an extreme scenario and it is no simple matter for a gas to come to be in such a state. Whatever kinetic energy it has will be constantly fighting against being reduced to such an extreme density. My question is what could cause gas to eventually be compressed into a state of such density in the early universe, out of an initial state where gas was diffuse and not yet formed into clouds, and where the kinetic energy of the gas would be fighting tooth and nail against whatever forces were trying to compact it into a super-dense state such that gravity would overcome kinetics.
“Only gravity and the electromagnetic force of molecular bonds” compresses gas into stars–could you give a few more details or links to read about the role of the electromagnetic force in the compression of gas?
Yes, my smoking astronaut experiment was rejected because of that Nasa ban!
But on a serious note about a supernova shock wave, sure it can send heavy elements into space and “clear the area of dust”, but what specifically happens to the gas cloud itself when that shock wave hits–are there any reasons why it would not serve to further disperse the cloud rather than compress it?
electromagnetic force holds molecules together. When molecules are not massive enough for gravity to hold together EM force will. Sure gravity holds me on the surface of the Earth but it is EM force that holds my body together. With EM force, my molecules would be a liquid on the floor.
sorry to have to ask for more clarification about this, but here goes:
Are the following correct examples of electromagnetic force at work in the early universe?
electrons settling into orbits around hydrogen nuclei, creating atomic hydrogen
atomic hydrogen forming into molecular hydrogen H2
Now we have H2 gas. Which specific electromagnetic effects then compress the gas into clouds and eventually gravitationally collapsed stars after H2 has been formed?
Don’t forget, that the gas is in motion (Brownian) and it is at a high temperature. As it cools (due to expansion of space) it clumps. EM hold clumps of molecules together which tend to be broken apart by radiation. Gravity attaches clumps together to form bigger clumps. Eventually gas is compressed by gravity to produce nuclear fusion (stars) that create the elements from helium to iron.
Patrick, thanks for the reply, a couple quick questions:
Your reply said “EM hold clumps of molecules together”. I’m having difficulty picturing this, so let me ask a few detailed things if I could–I feel like the way I’m picturing it is not right.
I assume the EM being referred to is the EM forces of the particles which are already a part of the existing molecules (let’s say H2), is this correct? Then, the EM forces of the particles within separate H2 molecules exert a force outside each molecule onto surrounding molecules and draw them together into clumps? Is ionization a part of this phenomenon?
Also, about Brownian motion: the definition I find says “the random motion of particles suspended in a fluid (a liquid or a gas) resulting from their collision with the quick atoms or molecules in the gas or liquid”, does this sound right?
In the early universe, H2 gas would be the Brownian “particles”, correct?(despite the fact that they are gaseous and not particulate matter)
What is the Brownian “fluid” that the H2 “particles” were suspended in?
Thanks for the quick reply, a point of clarification if I might ask for a couple more details:
In the definition of Brownian motion above, the “particles” have Brownian motion because other “quick atoms or molecules in the gas or liquid” of the fluid collide with them.
Your reply said that “space” is the fluid for the H2 “particles”–but empty space has no way of colliding with the H2 to give it Brownian motion, does it?
I’m guessing you might say that H2 molecules are colliding with each other in a way that leads to Brownian motion–if so, how is it that these gas-on-gas collisions lead to Brownian motion when standard Brownian motion describes the effect of gas or liquid molecules colliding with solid particles?
Brownian motion was first observed when solid particles in water were seen to move when there was no apparent reason for the movement. The underlying principle applies to any collection of particles. So the gas-on-gas collisions can lead to Brownian motion. The motion results from the collisions of particles with different velocities.
Patrick, thanks for the articles, they were interesting reads.
I greatly appreciate your careful reading of my questions, your patient replies, and the many links and resources you have passed on to me.
I also really appreciate your gracious spirit in discussing these issues with a big bang “unbeliever” such as myself.
After delving into details on the theories regarding the formation of Population III stars from gas these past couple weeks, I am certainly enriched with greater knowledge about the scenarios posited, while remaining unconvinced about their feasibility. If I have further questions I will post them, and would certainly appreciate you passing on anything you come across that describes more details about this “gas to star” process.
Patrick, I am indebted to you for the time you have spent interacting with me here, and would consider it my privilege to treat you to lunch if we ever came across each other in the real world, friend!
Thank you, I will extend the same offer to you. I would take you to lunch right near the Horn Antenna that Penzias and WIlson used to find remnants of the Big Bang in Holmdel New Jersey in 1964.