You put your right foot in…
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As am I, and as I do. Although I do believe there is an objective answer to most questions (I.e. there is one objective answer to whether the world is flat or not), I think that there are some objective answers we will never have access to (I.e. are we alone in the universe?) and some questions that never had objective answers at all.
I think teleology as an approach is very Theistic as it requires an intelligence to provide or organise that purpose, but it also implies a control and manipulation that is uncomfortable to the free thinkers. Judaism would seem to embrace teleology with its view on how God controls all things, even those who do not believe in Him. So that foreign powers can be made to resist or even punish the Jews on behalf of God. But, this makes God manipulative and domineering, which is precisely what Jesus proved false in His submission to human cruelty, yet even that can be interpreted as God’s will
I guess free will is not very biblical and therefore can be considered a human desire or myth, unless you decide that Scripture’s stance is the human understanding rather than a revelation from God.
The Christian view of God contradicts much of the human created pantheons or concepts by having any concern for humanity at all, yet in the psalms that incredulity is actually voiced.
So here is where I leave orthodoxy and enrage some Christians as much as I enrage scientists. I allow my personal experience of God to override the letter or spirit of Scripture.
Richard
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I assume that the will of God and His purpose for our life operates at a rather general level. Living in a relationship with God, growing towards a (practical) life that reflects the good will of God towards the people and creation around us, and reaching the ‘goal’, the resurrection life in the presence of God.
Within this general purpose, there may be periods with specific tasks to do. It might be that God somehow reveals or lets us understand that He wants us to serve in some role, at a specific place. These tasks are temporary in the sense that they may change during the life - parts of our life, rather than the meaning of life.
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I think you are not distinguishing between the life of a believer and life in general. What you said is fine if you have aligned yourself with God, and chosen to accept His authority. I think the story is different up until that point, so in general terms life has as meaning as we make of it. There is nothing predestined nor underlying teleology.
God stands at the door and waits. Any predestined teleology would contradict that.
Richard
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When you read Ecclesiastes, read with the question in mind: “What questions does the author actually seek to answer?”
They are different from the questions that contemporary Westerners are asking, different from the questions that are assumed in this thread.
Think about the author’s valuing of or emphasis on action.
Think about the difference between the conclusions the author draws and the kind of conclusions we seek today. Do we need to adjust our expectations, perhaps?
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I believe that God has a good will towards all people, although He does not accept evil acts.
I also believe that we have (limited) free will and may choose against the will of God.
Taken together, these two beliefs lead to a belief that it is the will of God that people find a relationship with Him (through Christ) and peace with God. That will does not happen in the life of many people because of the (limited) free will we have.
This is such an interpretation of life and scriptures that can be criticized. Some denominations teach predestination but I do not support that interpretation. My interpretation is that God has predestined salvation through and in Christ - whoever turns to Jesus Christ and accepts him as their Lord can become part of the predestined salvation in Christ. As Jesus told, he is the gate and the road, whoever has gone through that gate and walks on the Jesus road will be saved.
As individuals, we may invent a personal meaning to our life. That personal meaning is not always meaningful, in the sense that our life could have a better meaning or goal.
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That is human justice not necessarily God’s view,
Grace and forgiveness has no limit. Furthermore, what humans consider evil (or not) does not/ cannot be truly compared to God.
It would seem that God is prepared to wait out even the most evil of doers. His patience is boundless as is His mercy.
But, again, your view has Scriptural backing
Richard
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I think religion has evolved as the answer to this perennial question. So -for some of us- the question might be why has the answer appeared in so many forms across cultures and what are the commonalities between the meaning their adherents value?
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My life means that I ain’t dead yet.
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I am not sure that there is a succinct answer.
Religion seems to concentrate on inner peace and happiness, linked to pleasing God.
There is, of course the negative No meaning at allt.
Then there is the personal goal of happiness that seems to be some combination of wealth, happiness, recognition/fame or power, that we never see to be able to fully achieve.
I guess there is an altruistic goal of world peace or some sort of unity for the good or benefit of humanity
The scientific view might be as simple as survival and procreation.
It would seem to be a philosophical question that does not need an answer for us to live and therefore is academic (In all senses of the word).
Richard
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I agree. I don’t really like the idea of God being a giant puppet master that decides all our life decisions, because that could then mean he is in control of our sin and (hopefully not) our decision to believe in Jesus or not, which then undermines the whole concept of free will differentiating us from God and that facing consequences of our sin because we decided to sin.
I’ve also had concerns brought up by some extreme Biblical literalists that said that Jesus only came to redeem the nation of Israel, and that everyone else that isn’t Jewish is doomed to go to hell. With my background in Evolutionary Creationism, I find this a bit contradictory, as I believe that God created the Universe with the hopes of having a relationship with all life and knowing that we will sin, but not with an original sin as posited in Genesis to explain why humanity faces death (as I believe that death is just a consequence of an entropic Universe rather than the consequences of anyone’s actions). Why would God create humans to have a relationship with them only to save a handful of them?
I’m familiar with the Final Commandment to make disciples of all nations but are there any other words directly attributed to Christ that shows that I, a non-Jew, will be saved by believing in Him?
God’s sovereignty over life and Creation has always been a weird question for me. On the one hand, if God has to intervene in everything, is he really a powerful God since he has to manually keep everything on track instead of creating everything to go the direction he wanted in the first place? (Or, as Professor Dave of YouTube painfully puts it, a constantly interrupting God is a “lame God”). But, if God isn’t present in our lives and having his hand in certain decisions, than what is the purpose of believing in a God if we can explain natural everyday occurrences just fine with natural explanation?
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Scripture is consistent in showing that the Jews are a social case and that Jesus came primarily for them, but
He heals non Jews.
His act of sacrifice inevitably included all who participated in His death and they were not all Jews.
I have recently come to realise that the separation of Jews and Judaism is a master stroke on God’s part as it demonstrates the expectations of following Him without impinging on free will for the rest of humanity. It wold seem that the Jews are a special case and may be seen as being drafted rather than volunteering, so that the privelage of being favoured has a major penalty denying them the choice to say no.
Yes, the dispensation to all comes via Paul, but Jesus did not have to express it as it did not affect His mission. What it does is emphasise the significance and commitment of choosing to follow Him as a belief in God.
Richard
Edit
But also God’s love and forgiveness and persistence when we fail or stray.
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If we live separated from God, much of our life seems to be just ‘natural life’. God may affect the big picture of what is happening in our world but if a person does not want to follow the will of God, God can leave that person to live his/her ‘independent’ life. That includes also leaving the responsibility of the consequences of the personal decisions to that person - what you sow is what you reap.
Those who believe in God have the priviledge to live in a relationship with God. The good promises of God are part of this relationship, both for this life and the promised life after the resurrection.
There is also a possibility to get guidance to the influential decisions of life. The guidance comes mainly through the teaching we get through the biblical scriptures and churches (assuming that the church teaches the same message as the original apostles and NT scriptures). My observation is that the Holy Spirit may also sometimes give more direct guidance if we pray and search the will of God. That guidance is not hammered to our life. Rather, you have to stop to listen to the quiet voice that wants to guide you towards the path that follows the will of God. That may help in avoiding bad decisions that may cause suffering and sorrow in the lives of ourselves and those who are close to us.
These are examples of the benefits of believing in God and following Jesus. From the viewpoint of such benefits, it is rational to believe in God. However, if we only look at what we can see and understand with our natural senses, it may seem to be foolish to believe in the invisible part of the creation or the Lord who was crucified and resurrected for our salvation.
If you are asking about the deeper, fundamental purpose of life, or why so much seem to be tied to faith, those questions are above my pay grade. 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 gives one perspective to the question of why salvation is tied to faith but it does not seem to go very deep. For a more comprehensive answer, you need to ask answers to those questions from God.
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There are examples throughout the Bible that both support and undermine our concept of free will. We may like it or not. Our preferences are of no interest to the Bible.
The Bible is not the logic puzzle that theologians (of any or no rank) often treat it to be. Systematic theologies are interesting and can be valuable, but they require choices and interpretation. Theologians (any of us who is trying to make sense of the Bible (in this context)) decide what to emphasize and what to downplay, because everything doesn’t fit neatly together as a die-cut puzzle. They decide, whether they grasp that they do or not, what sort of world view they employ to understand what to emphasize or downplay. The world view leads to all sorts of differences and conclusions without recognizing itself as a part of the interpretive process, although it is essential.
I don’t say this to undermine theology but to push against the apparent certainty of dogmatism.
In the gospels Jesus interacts with many Gentiles and tells them the same thing he told Jewish believers: Your faith has saved you/made you whole.
I let Gemini make this list for me:
- The Roman Centurion: Jesus healed the centurion’s paralyzed servant at Capernaum, marveling at the soldier’s extraordinary faith (Matthew 8:5–13). [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
- The Syrophoenician (Canaanite) Woman: Jesus cast a demon out of her daughter after she persistently asked for help, noting her great faith (Matthew 15:21–28; Mark 7:24–30). [1, 2]
- The Gerasene Demoniac: After healing a demon-possessed man in the region of the Decapolis (a Gentile area), Jesus told him to go tell his own people how much the Lord had done for him (Mark 5:1–20). [1]
- The Samaritan Woman: While Samaritans had mixed heritage and separate religious traditions, Jesus ministered to the woman at the well and stayed with the Samaritan village for two days (John 4:4–42). [1, 2, 3, 4]
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Thank you for this! I think in the midst of my search for truth I may have accidentally missed some important parts of the Bible to try and find the most concrete answers to my questions. Of course, now that I’m reminded of this, I will certainly make it a goal of mine to try and rekindle a relationship with God.
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Thank you! It’s always scary to try and understand these heavy questions with regards to salvation and forgiveness (especially when you become aware of this question due to a cocky extremist).
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Granted eight billion people on the planet and billions of Christians with different backgrounds, education, life experiences and socio-economic statuses, this doesn’t seem altogether unexpected. I wonder if the diversity is even that great given the population size. I do note we are also quite emotional and rational thought is tiring considering the amount of brain power it uses. We sometimes default what is easy but I digress. So sure, there is a lot of diversity in the world and within Christianity itself. I am not sure if you are implying we should conclude anything explicit from the amount of diversity present in and of itself?
I have provided arguments in favor of final causality and teleology several times on this forum. They are there for any who choose to dialogue with them.
Keep in mind that Jesus lived 2,000 years ago (before the enlightenment and modernity) when the Jews were pretty much considered atheists by the outside world because they were monotheists. But the point is, virtually everyone accepted the existence God or numerous gods at the time and Jesus’s primary audience was Jewish. I wouldn’t over-press what Jesus did and did not address on this front. He didn’t comment on the ethical use of the internet either and when I go to Church the pastor isn’t there trying to prove God exists to everyone. Jesus came to the house of Israel (Jewish believers) and he addressed them appropriately. Who knows how he would address people today.
Jesus actually did do things to demonstrate or prove His identity. Maybe not when impiously asked for a sign, but he did do things so that we may believe.
John 20:31 **31 **But these[e] are recorded[f] so that you may believe[g] that Jesus is the Christ,[h] the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
He also engaged in rhetoric and logic. He uses reductio ad absurdum arguments (if you believed Moses you would believe me, a house divided cannot stand), a fortiori arguments (how much more will your Heavenly Father give you good gifts), he answers questions with questions (whose face is on this coin), uses scripture against scripture (divorce) , was a Jewish rabbi and the gospels show him as engaged widely in intra-Jewish debate over a variety of issues.
We are also told to always be able to give a reason for the hope that we have in our hearts (1 Pet 3:15). This can be spiritual, logical, emotional, scriptural, experiential and so forth. Every case is different.
I also note the gospels are not ancient novels. They belong to the genre of ancient historical biography of the early Empire. They are written in close proximity to the events they narrate (living memory) so they are not myths demanding blind assent but reasoned historical testimonies. Luke explicitly opens his Gospel by stating he has carefully investigated everything from the beginning to provide “certainty” regarding the things taught.
So while we can agree in that I also don’t see faith as “a matter of logical conclusions based on sophisticated arguments,” but I also don’t see faith as blind, dumb luck, potluck, or entirely emotive. I think we need to avoid fideism. When we have faith we have to have faith in something so on a prima facie level, it would seem to me we cannot entirely disconnect it from reason. I believe grace builds on nature. Sophisticated arguments are not equivalent to faith but they seem to be the scaffolding that makes our faith rational rather than arbitrary.
I mean, why do so many leave the faith? We on Biologos know many cite the conflict between faith and science. This tells me if Christianity is not intellectually credible, if philosophers and apologists do not meet modernity and the world head on, if Christians don’t offer sound, studied exegesis of scripture, it seems the Church will hurt. Sophisticated arguments absolutely play a vital role in the Church.
Where is the happy medium for you?
Vinnie
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