Jesus Himself viewed divisions and fragmentations amongst Christians as something negative, as the Gospel testifies.
Jesus founded His Church on Peter, as we can read in the Gospels.
He is the rock upon which Christ’s Church was founded. So I don’t really consider it a “human” institution.
Or better yet: it’s made of humans but vivified and assisted by the Holy Spirit. And Jesus Himself prayed and prays so that Peter may not fail and may confirm his brothers. Which makes it far more than a mere “human” institution.
Dogma is ingrained in you. it is thinking like yours that causes divisions, or fractures or whatever.
You seem unable to see let alone accept a view other than yours.
(Let the rhetorical insults commence)
Richard
Yeah man, whatever you say.
Let’s just put it this way and call it a day, Richard: I’m every bit as stubborn and dogmatic as your compatriots Thomas More and John Fisher.
I didn’t read it all but a lot of it looks similar.
Article IX. Of Baptism.
1 Of Baptism they teach that it is necessary 2 to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God, and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism are received into God’s grace.
3 They condemn the Anabaptists, who reject the baptism of children, and say that children are saved without Baptism. (Source: Article IX. Of Baptism. · BookOfConcord.org )
I’m guessing he meant modern baptists, non-denomination and evangelical Protestants. There is so much diversity we really can’t talk about protestants in general.
Vinnie
And who are they and what have they got to do with me?
Don’t you understand what “No other human matters” means?
If you want to trust human authority and consensus over God, so be it. Just do not criticise me for not doing so.
RIchard
Lmao, I’ve never done that. I trust the Holy Spirit and Jesus’s promises, not some 16th-century men who thought they knew better, and those who bent the knee to please a king.
Then what is the Catholic Church made of, Gods or humans. Was Peter a God? Are any of the Popes a God?
When will you understand that I bow to no one other than God, and certainly not a King of the 16th century. You however…
There is nothing on this Earth, under, or over it, to proclaim that the Catholic Church is the only true faith. It is made up of humans, and always has been.
Laugh that off!
Richard
Edit
PS you are getting very close to blaspheming the Holy Spirt. Not that it is any of my business, but…
No. And yet Peter and his successors are the rock upon which God founded His Church. The rock which has the duty given to him by God Himself to confirm his brothers in the faith.
How do I know that? By reading the gospels. The same gospels that were declared as canon by the same Church whose authority you don’t recognize (and for example the authenticity of the Gospel of John has been disputed a lot).
Laugh that off.
One of the hallmarks of the sin against the Holy Spirit is resisting the known truth. Just saying.
You are engaging in caricature. We don’t follow the man Peter, the human Church or the completely fallible and human teachings of Richard. In our mind we are following Jesus who chose, taught and commissioned His disciples. We follow Peter, the chief apostle, since Jesus declared him the rock on which the Church would be built. We follow the apostolic Church left by Jesus who also spoke of the Holy Spirit coming and Him being with us always. In essence, we are following Jesus. To use an analogy, Christians aren’t just following the literature of men when they listen to the Bible. Someone may think the text is not inspired and simply consists of the traditions of men, but for those following it, they do so because they believe it to be the word of God through men. Well, we have the Church of God through men.
You bow to no one except God? Okay. But you can still show reverence and accept the channels God works through.
Vinnie
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It is also claiming some authority or truth over someone else, and implying that you have it and they do not.
And where does it claim that rock will have nothing else on top of it or built from it. You build on foundations you do not live in them.
Ooh, ouch.
Another assertion. You read the Gospels correctly…
Oh what a tangled web we weave. All or nothing? You seem to be claiming that i do not accept or agree with anything of the Catholic Church, or that my faith is not based on Scripture… should i go on?
I suggest you stop now. Stop digging. You never no where it will take you but it can’t be good.
Richard
Most excellently said.
Never claimed that I have any sort of authority at all, in fact quite the opposite. You are so entrenched in subjectivism that you really seem not to be able to to understand this
But the reformers destroyed the foundations, they didn’t build on top of them. Which is what also started the neverending festival of schisms and divisions that led today to 47.000 different denominations.
And here we go again. I really don’t much stock at all in MY interpretation. I have my own ideas on stuff that has not need definitely ruled such as the infamous de auxiliis controversy, but that’s it, I’ve never presumed that my interpretation is the correct one.
So you recognize the Canon established by the Church but don’t recognize the fact that the same Church who had tue authority of establishing the Canon also has the authority, given by God (“the Spirit will come and lead you to the whole truth”), to interpret it correctly.
Yeah man, that was my point. You agree with the Church as long as she agrees with you. Nothing wrong with that, I mean, it’s subjectivism at its finest but who the hell an I to judge? But if I see an apple I’m not calling it a donkey.
You’re the one who’s digging, man. By all means, continue.
Reached the Ad homine argument have we.
I have never demanded that you or anyone else “follow” me or even agree with me! If you see a caricature than it is not me who made you see it!
Which implies that I am not. Why can you not see this!
And you deny that church is composed of humans with all that entails?
God did not force the church to follow exactly His ways. God does not do that., He never even did, not with Israel and certainly not with the Christian Church. If Jesus had His way we would all be Jews! (You can easily read that into Scripture, but I am not claiming it for myself)
You really do not read back your words as if they were aimed at you, do you. If you did you would be a little more diplomatic. Your words come across as a… , and S, and a few other things I will not state for Compliance reasons.
Do not paint me with your brush.
Richard
No they did not. That is both inaccurate and judgmental. Not to mention dogma.
You might believe it, but your words deny it. You hide behind the thought that thy are not your words!
FCOL when will you give up!
Stop imposing your views And distortion on me!
There is no fixed interpretation! There doesn’t need to be. That is not the point of Scripture!
Right, correct, God given, they are all exclusive and restrictive! Allow a little latitude!
I have never said or even implied that of me. In fact I claim the opposite about agreement!
Richard
Do you want me to show you what the reformers said about the Pope?
How so?
I mean, so what is true in one century can be false in another century? Jesus’ words about marriage for example, how can they be changed in their meaning? I’m asking because most reformed churches allow multiple remarriages.
I think you might be a little confused.
And?
What has that got to do with me?
If you cannot see it, I have no authority to say otherwise.
No, No and No.
You have not taken any notice of a thing I have said.
It is not about anyone being RIGHT (or wrong) True (or false)
Not me.
I will be generous and say that perhaps I have not been clear enough for you to understand. My bad.
(But don’t push it)
Richard
You denied that the reformers destroyed the foundation, but they actually did, their words about the Pope and the Catholic Church clearly show this.
It’s all good, man.
So is it about truth not existing or not being knowable? And what do we make of Jesus’ words when He said “you WILL know the truth and the truth will set you free”? Or are you suggesting something else?
You are so kind. You make me blush.
Not so kind anymore. 
I confirmed or denied nothing. it is you who have made the judgmental claims.
And what has that got to do with me!
(You have never heard my real views on the Pope or even Catholicism, I just accept them all as part of the Christian faith and keep those thoughts to myself)
No it isn’t.
We all need a reality check now and then. I think yours is overdue.
No.
it is about truth not being absolute or definitive. You treat truth like a scientific Law with no exceptions or variations.
Where does that define truth or exclude someone ese seeing things differently?
You are making the assumptions , interpretations and assertions, not me.
Take it while you can. I am not known for my patiance. Job was a saint.
Richard