You have set up a straw man and shooting at it. I have published two papers in islamic journals. I respect Moses, jesus, mohammad equally. I am told by muslim maulanas that I am a muslim. I consider myself to be a hindu, jew, christian and muslim. I still do not understand what you find anti.christian in my posts. Pl rest assured I love jesus. Pl do elaborate any difference between allah and yhwh. My understanding is that biblical Elohim and yhwh are coalesced into one allah.
Wage oppression yes, slavery no. The Jewish belief holds with oppression. So no antipathy. As regards mention of slavery in OT, I repeat that the hebrew word means servant more than slave. I posted earlier in this thread and will do again if you like. As regards links, pl give one link and indicate specific para therein. I will respond. I have time limitations please.
For one thing, your interpretation of the Exodus is not biblical at all.
So provide some verses that say the Hebrews only complained about their wages.
Using Strong’s to do a study of Hebrew is doomed to failure.
So please explain why Dr. Sarna, a Jewish professional translator, is wrong.
No you will just repeat what you have said before.
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- A tiresome accusation.
- If I have set up a straw man, then tell me what that straw man is and where.
- What intentionally misrepresented proposition have I set up that was not your real argument. Enlighten me.
- Do you or do you not propose that Moses and Krishna are or were the same person? If you do then show me where in the Qur’an or the Tanakh or the Christian scriptures it says that or even suggests that it is possible? If you cannot, then your claim is unproven and unconvincing.
- At the Transfiguration of Jesus, observed by Peter, John, and James, who did Jesus meet with and stand next to: the prophet Elijah and Moses or Elijah and Krishna?
- What intentionally misrepresented proposition have I set up that was not your real argument. Enlighten me.
- As for the two papers that you have published in Islamic journals, I would congratulate you but I don’t know where they are nor do I know their subject matter.
- Moreover, when I went on to speak of the Ka’aba, I was not suggesting that your claim that Moses and Krishna are the same person has anything to do with the Ka’aba. The Ka’aba and it’s place in the Qur’an and in Islam is a completely separate and different matter. Either it has the same meaning and significance to Allah and to YHWH or it does not. If Allah tells Muslims to face it when they pray and calls Muslims to make a hajj to it and YHWH makes no mention of the Ka’aba but appeared in the Temple built for Him by Solomon in Jerusalem and was worshipped in the second Temple built in the same place, then it would appear to me that God (i.e. your sincretic YHWH-Allah) intentionally promotes differences and divisions.
- Whether you respect Moses, Jesus, and Mohammad equally or not is of no importance to me, nor do I suggest that you do not.
- I will say that, if Krishna and Moses are the same person, Krishna has done a marvelous job of hiding himself from Jews and Moses has done an equally marvelous job of hiding from Hindus, again seeming to promote division and differences among humanity.
- Your reputation among muslim maulanas and their affirmation that you are a muslim is for others to evaluate. I have no opinion on either your reputation or the affirmations of maulanas.
- For your information, I make a big distinction between “anti-Christians” and “non-Christians”. I cannot imagine a Christian anti-Christian and think that’s an impossibility. However, I am sure that it is possible to be a “non-Christian” without being an “anti-Christian”. I wouldn’t consider you an overt anti-Christian.
- What I find questionable, to say the least, in your continued assertion that YHWH and Allah are the same entity. is the fact that–although orthodox Jews will deny that YHWH sent Jesus–there is no evidence that I have ever seen suggesting that YHWH denied or denies that Jesus of Nazareth was crucified. Allah, however, in Surah 4:157 of the Qur’an, says: “…and for their saying, “We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the messenger of God”—though they did not slay him; nor did they crucify him, but it appeared so unto them. Those who differ concerning him are in doubt thereof. They have no knowledge of it, but follow only conjecture; they slew him not for certain.”
- So how does that work? Christian scripture affirms that Jesus was crucified, placed in a tomb, and resurrected soon thereafter and Allah denies the crucifixion. In what world are P and ~P both true?
- You say you love Jesus, and I have to ask: which one? The one who was crucified or the one who was not.
- What I find questionable, to say the least, in your continued assertion that YHWH and Allah are the same entity. is the fact that–although orthodox Jews will deny that YHWH sent Jesus–there is no evidence that I have ever seen suggesting that YHWH denied or denies that Jesus of Nazareth was crucified. Allah, however, in Surah 4:157 of the Qur’an, says: “…and for their saying, “We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the messenger of God”—though they did not slay him; nor did they crucify him, but it appeared so unto them. Those who differ concerning him are in doubt thereof. They have no knowledge of it, but follow only conjecture; they slew him not for certain.”
- You say that it is your understanding is that the Biblical Elohim and YHWH coalesced into one Allah, i.e. they came together to form one whole god. Neat trick. Are you sure that you haven’t confused Epimenides’ Zeus, the Athenian Ἄγνωστος Θεός [the Unknown God], and the Vedic “Unknown God”?
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We’re all cranks to some degree, ‘a person who holds an unshakable belief that most of his or her contemporaries consider to be false’, I certainly am. But the idiolectic syncretistic beliefs in question here are unique, though of a type, a story of confirmation bias. Which is the story of a life. What’s your story @bharatjj? Once upon a time in the Land of the Kingdoms?
You refuse to acknowledge that in the Exodus story the Hebrews were slaves. Your ideas about Krishna are way out there and not found in the Bible…
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What is non biblical about it?
I dont refuse. I am only saying that the main meaning of Hebrew word is servant, not slave.
The Bible speaks of krishna by the name Moses.
By placing the Exodus from the Indus Valley.
You can’t just invent your own translations for Hebrew words. A translator should be a Hebrew scholar. That’s not you.
Where in the Bible is Krishna associated with Moses? Chapter and verse, please.
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TS: Do you or do you not propose that Moses and Krishna are or were the same person? If you do then show me where in the Qur’an or the Tanakh or the Christian scriptures it says that or even suggests that it is possible?
BJ: Yes. I do propose that. This is written all over the Bible and the Quran. Only the name used is Krishna instead of Moses. 1. Born in distress. 2. Saved across/along a river. 3. Killed Mitsrayimite/Kamsa and fled. 4. Returned. 5. Led his people away. 6. Crosses the rive/sea. 7 Killing of brother-by-brother. List goes on and on. Of course, these parallels do not establish they were the same person. But if the place and time is also same, I my study shows it is, then they have to be the same person.
TS: At the Transfiguration of Jesus, observed by Peter, John, and James, who did Jesus meet with and stand next to: the prophet Elijah and Moses or Elijah and Krishna?
BJ: Jesus must have met with the prophet Elijah and another prophet known as both Moses and Krishna.
TS: If Allah tells Muslims to face it when they pray and calls Muslims to make a hajj to it and YHWH makes no mention of the Ka’aba but appeared in the Temple built for Him by Solomon in Jerusalem and was worshipped in the second Temple built in the same place, then it would appear to me that God (i.e. your sincretic YHWH-Allah) intentionally promotes differences and divisions.
BJ: Allah-YHWH is Infinite. An Infinite part of the Infinite spoke of Kaaba; and another Infinite part of the Same Infinite appeared in Solomon’s Temple. The divisiveness appears because those humans who grasp the Allah-Infinity do not grasp the YHWH-Infinity and vice versa. These are human-created differences due to poor grasp of Allah-YHWH.
TS: I will say that, if Krishna and Moses are the same person, Krishna has done a marvelous job of hiding himself from Jews and Moses has done an equally marvelous job of hiding from Hindus, again seeming to promote division and differences among humanity.
BJ: None did anything deliberately. The Hebrews left Indus Valley. My sense is, subject to further study, that they forgot (or were “forced” to derecognize) their geographical origins after they were exiled from Jerusalem or some other time. But the legends held. They re-identified the names with places in the Levant. As for Hindus, their texts tell nothing about what happened to Krishna after he left the Indus Valley. All that is said that he left for an unknown country.
TS: For your information, I make a big distinction between “anti-Christians” and “non-Christians”. I cannot imagine a Christian anti-Christian and think that’s an impossibility. However, I am sure that it is possible to be a “non-Christian” without being an “anti-Christian”. I wouldn’t consider you an overt anti-Christian.
BJ: I am a Christian, Jew, Muslim and Hindu.
TS: …there is no evidence that I have ever seen suggesting that YHWH denied or denies that Jesus of Nazareth was crucified. Allah, however, in Surah 4:157 of the Qur’an, says: “…and for their saying, “We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the messenger of God”—though they did not slay him; nor did they crucify him, but it appeared so unto them. Those who differ concerning him are in doubt thereof. They have no knowledge of it, but follow only conjecture; they slew him not for certain.”
BJ: I admit this is the first time I have read this Ayat in detail. This is my very preliminary response. I understand that there are differences among Christians as to whether Christ resurrected or not. Perhaps, the Quran is speaking of the resurrected Christ. In that case he was not slain. I would like to take time to respond on this one.
TS: You say you love Jesus, and I have to ask: which one? The one who was crucified or the one who was not.
BJ: Tentative response: Both.
TS: You say that it is your understanding is that the Biblical Elohim and YHWH coalesced into one Allah, i.e. they came together to form one whole god.
BJ: Elohim is an impersonal dimension of God while YHWH is personal dimension. I am suggesting that the name Allah is used for both the dimensions.
Terry, I have responded to every point you have raised. I beseech you to let us pursue the truth together in a friendly dialogue.
BJ: I repeat that the hebrew word means servant more than slave.
Bill: Using Strong’s to do a study of Hebrew is doomed to failure. Strong’s Concordance is not a translation of the Bible nor is it intended as a translation tool. The use of Strong’s numbers is not a substitute for professional translation of the Bible from Hebrew and Greek into English by those with formal training in ancient languages and the literature of the cultures in which the Bible was written.
BJ: You may be right about Strong’s. The way forward would be for you to explain why in this instance the word should be translated as “slave” and not “servant.” Exegesis involves studying the use of a particular word at multiple places in the Bible and then ascertaining how it may have been used in a particular instance. Also, please note I am not invoking Strong’s as an authority. All I am saying is that the word “`ebed <05650>” is translated as servant about 600 times and as slave about 60 times. So the primary meaning is servant. It is for you (or Sarna) to show why it should be translated at slave in this case and not as servant.
Bill: So please explain why Dr. Sarna, a Jewish professional translator, is wrong.
BJ: Contrariwise, you may kindly explain why Strong’s is wrong. Every scholar has a perspective. (I have hard copy of Sarna and use it frequently). There is no right or wrong in these matters. We are in a forum where we are discussing what may be the correct translation. I think we must reread the Bible and examine whether it says servant or slavery.
BJ1: What is non biblical about it?
BL: By placing the Exodus from the Indus Valley.
BJ2: The Bible does not place the Exodus either in Egypt or the Indus Valley. It places the Exodus from Mitsrayim. We have to apply our minds as to where Mitsrayim may have been located. Nothing non-Biblical either way.
BJ1: I am only saying that the main meaning of Hebrew word is servant, not slave.
BL: You can’t just invent your own translations for Hebrew words. A translator should be a Hebrew scholar. That’s not you.
BJ2: Oh! Scholars again. Beaglelady, I have been a Professor at India’s equivalent of Harvard Business School. Professors come with their perspectives. God has given us minds to think. I say clearly that we believers would not be fighting with each other if scholars had got it right. Don’t forget that Hitler had and Taliban has its scholars.
BJ1: The Bible speaks of krishna by the name Moses.
BL: Where in the Bible is Krishna associated with Moses? Chapter and verse, please.
BJ2: This is written all over the Bible and the Quran. Only the name used is Krishna instead of Moses. 1. Born in distress. 2. Saved across/along a river. 3. Killed Mitsrayimite/Kamsa and fled. 4. Returned. 5. Led his people away. 6. Crosses the rive/sea. 7 Killing of brother-by-brother. List goes on and on. Of course, these parallels do not establish they were the same person. But if the place and time is also same, I my study shows it is, then they have to be the same person.
According to the Bible the Exodus was from Egypt.
Scholars can be very inconvenient to those who like to make things up.
Again, chapter and verse please where Krishna is associated with Moses. It’s like trying to make a case that Ronald McDonald is associated with Moses.
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What are the journals? Where may we see what you published?
You can’t be a Muslim if you believe in pagan gods like Krishna.
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- Fortunately, there are others who have applied their minds as to where Mitsrayim was located. And somebody has even written a brief article for Wikipedia about where Mitsrayim was located. According to Wikipedia, Mizraim:
- Mizraim [Hebrew]: מִצְרַיִם / מִצְרָיִם, *Mīṣrayīm; cf. [Arabic] مصر , Miṣr ) is the Hebrew and Aramaic name for the land of Egypt, with the dual suffix -āyim , perhaps referring to the “two Egypts”: Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt. Mizraim is the dual form of matzor, meaning a “mound” or “fortress,” the name of a people descended from Ham (son_of_Noah). It was the name generally given by the Hebrews to the land of Egypt and its people.
- If we don’t like that, we can go to the Orthodox Jewish site: www.chabad.org and read an interesting spin on The journeys of the children of Israel, going out of the land of Mitzrayim
If we take “mitzrayim” as a metaphor, and think of Bible’s language, which speaks of “the journeys of the children of Israel”, we could even think of Mitzrayim as any place on Earth at any time.
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Any friendly dialogue will have to be about things which we do not disagree about. Based on your responses to the points that I raised. it is clear to me that we have irreconcilable differences over all of those points. What’s left?
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- You are unnecesarily complicating a simple matter.
- The key words in Surah 4:157 are: “though they did not slay him [i.e. Jesus of Nazareth, son of Mary], nor did they crucify him, but it appeared so unto them”. Either Jesus was crucified or he was not “and only appeared to be so to them.” Those are words translated from the Arabic Qur’an. The words contradict anything the New Testament affirms about events leading up to Jesus’ resurrection.
- Differences among Christians as to whether Christ was resurrected are completely irrelevant. What the Qur’an is speaking of is not the resurrected Christ. The idea that Jesus could not have been slain if He was resurrected is a joke. But I’m not laughing. Folks can play games with the words: “slain” and “resurrected”. But when Allah says: “nor did they crucify him”, somebody is going to have to do some fancy dancing to turn that into “so Jesus was not really crucified.” And if that’s what Allah said, he must have been sleeping when Jesus actually was crucified. Maybe that’s what Jesus was referring to when, on the cross, he cried out: "Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani?”
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Did you not get that the Jewish translation of the word is “slave.” Enough said so please stop saying it means servant. And if you understood the culture you would know that servant was the function not the status of the person. Slaves were often servants in a household.
First Strong’s isn’t wrong. It is how you are using it. Strong’s had no training, as in zero, zip, nadda, in Hebrew or Greek. His concordance is intended to allow you to look up where in the KJV a word is used so you can compare the verses where the word was used.
And now for the piece de resistance. Found your link to the NETBible web site and what did I see?
Not that translation is done by majority vote, but it sure looks like it means slave to me.
Edit to add:
If you don’t believe what I have said about your use of Strong’s here is something I found. This is from a Zondervan’s YouTube video on “Using a Bible Concordance.” Also I made the same mistake when I first purchased my paper copy of Strong’s. Yes it was a long time ago. I swear it wasn’t carved on stone tablets.
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Some people would rather be wrong than happy.