What is knowledge and is it ever non-empirical?

I decided to follow the @Terry_Sampson @T_aquaticus thread through this discussion to see if I could bring my physics expertise to bear. My conclusion is that this example only underlines my original objection in this thread that the essence of knowledge is not demonstration but that which we live by. Special relativity is scientific knowledge because that is the tool scientists have been using in scientific inquiry for a century NOT because of some empirical demonstration that special relativity and not Neo-Lorentzian ether is correct. Of course as a physicist I think the NL ether hypothesis is crackpot nonsense. But the reason is not some empirical demonstration but the simple fact that SR works – it has the test of time and usefulness which this NL ether hypothesis does not.

NL ether also violates a fundamental ideal of scientific inquiry, where you test an hypothesis and you accept the result rather than keep adjusting the hypothesis until you get something which we have no way to test. It is dishonest. And it therefore has the same flavor as creationism – concocted by people who are determined to oppose the scientific results no matter what. It also has the ad-hoc flavor of the Ptolemaic universe where you keep adding epicycles to make it work. And while I am usually happy to point out that the Ptolemy picture does describe what we actually see in the sky of earth, the endless addition of epicycles does make this unsuited to the use in further scientific inquiry.

Who says it is? I didn’t.

Then can you explain the results of the Michelson-Morley experiment within NLR?

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Yes. I have read such an explanation. It sounds atrociously ad-hoc. But yes you can.

As you mention earlier, it is that ad-hoc feature which causes a problem. Parsimony is a real thing in science.

This is also why we don’t suggest that trickster leprechauns leave DNA and fingerprint evidence at crime scenes in such a way that it is indistinguishable from the commission of a real crime.

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Your objection is duly noted and thanks for it. As it so happens, I’m inclined to agree that “knowledge is not demonstration but that which we live by.”

Real thing??? “guffaw”. If you were willing “to step into my parlor”, I’d try to show you something that might put a dent in your notion of “real”.

Per the discussion, would you agree that parsimony is a big part of how we acquire knowledge?

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  • Screenshot_2021-01-25 parsimony - Google Search

How much does it cost to find a higgs boson?

“Much as we’d like to believe that science can be done by lone geniuses, toiling in their basement laboratories, the fact of the matter is that discovering the fundamental secrets of the universe doesn’t come cheap. …The Large Hadron Collider took about a decade to construct, for a total cost of about $4.75 billion. There are several different experiments going on at the LHC, including the CMS and ATLAS Detectors which discovered the Higgs boson. CERN contributes about 20% of the cost of those experiments, which is a total of about $5.5 billion a year. The remainder of the funding for those experiments is provided by international collaborations. Computing power is also a significant part of the cost of running CERN - about $286 million annually. Electricity costs alone for the LHC run about $23.5 million per year. The total [operating budget] of the LHC runs to about $1 billion per year.”

In answer to your question, I’d say parsimony is not “a real thing in modern science”, but as for most of us poor folk, it does seem to be the way we acquire knowledge. IMHO, most of us are just “ad hoc”-ing along.

Maybe you are not understanding how the term is used with respect to science? It is not unlike Ockham’s razor.

Well, that’s news to me. So, in science, “parsimony” is more like Ockham’s razor than being extremely unwilling to spend money or use resources. I suspect www.dictionary.com needs to update, eh?

May I commend Google to you.

https://www.google.com/search?q=parsimony+in+science

Much obliged. Just goes to show ya that I ain’t too old, at 72, to learn something new.

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Well, I learned something that we have in common: our ages. :slightly_smiling_face:

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(Merriam-Webster has it covered):

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The boys down at the bar are going to be real impressed when the bar opens for business again.

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Maybe you could use my favorite, as well:

Hanlon’s razor
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

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The advantage of Hanion’s razor is you can politely signal your verdict simply by preceding whatever criticism you have with “Bless his little heart”.

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Here is an early usage of the term, in case you were wondering:

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I wasn’t, but thanks for the history lesson.
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