What is knowledge and is it ever non-empirical?

It certainly wasn’t. It was a description of a thought-experiment which would require moving the lab set-up faster than anyone knows how to in order to notice a difference in incident and reflection angles.

However, my point was that NLR says there would be a difference and SR says there wouldn’t be. You asked for something that would show the difference between SR and NLR. I attempted to show you something that does. If it doesn’t, maybe Mitchel will offer something more than what he’s said so far in this thread.

Double Click, then right click, then choose Google definition

Where’s my cursor supposed to be when I double click, then right click?

On the word itself, both times

One mystery solved…

next mystery. What does “eight down” mean to you? This is what I see on my screen.

@Terry_Sampson, prompted by your diagram, I have now spent some time reviewing a researching the SR / NLR topic and the discussion around absolute space and time and the ether and so on. It has been a while since I was more frequently across this topic, so I wanted to re-familiarize myself before commenting further. This is my response.

What you are putting forward is essentially wrong.

I admire the work and patience of @T_aquaticus in responding to you posts. Although I have enough science knowledge to do it, frankly I really just don’t have the inclination to do battle at the coal face with you, and certainly not the time. As I have said elsewhere, arguing science with non-scientists is usually futile. So I am going to cut to the chase here.

Firstly, you are putting yourself forward as a critic of well-supported scientific theory on the grounds that if does not comport with the kind of reality you need to fit with your particular biblical worldview. This is by your own words - although I am paraphrasing. You are an accountant with limited if no scientific training and entry level math skills at best, and are attempting to match wits with the greatest minds of the 20th century. So in addition to needing to see some humility in this discussion, let’s apply some of this parsimony everyone seems to like talking about.

What is more likely, that an accountant with a theological problem with the implications of a scientific theory may be wrong, or the virtual entirety of the world of physics is wrong? I think the former is more likely.

What is the simplest explanation of your problem here - is it that there is a problem with the science, OR a problem with your capacity to understand or accept the science? I think here it is the latter that is more likely.

I think your efforts would be better directed to thinking about why it is that you have difficulty letting go of your misconceptions, and why it is that you have devoted so much of your life to pursue this topic without once considering working to acquire the necessary math and science skills so that you would be equipped, at least in principle, to deal with these topics at the necessary depth and competence they demand.

Terry, I really don’t mean for this to be insulting to you. I am merely saying that I think you have gone about this the wrong way. I think it is a mistake personally for you to assume that everyone else is wrong, rather than consider that you might be wrong, and that just because you can’t make sense of something, does not mean it is incorrect. And, just because it does not align with your version of theology, does not mean it is incorrect. Reality does not care what you believe, it just is, and the evidence is against you here.

Besides this, you have not approached this whole thing scientifically yourself. To make this clearer for you, I recommend you go to @jammycakes website and read about how to disprove a scientific theory. James has done an excellent job of pointing out what you need to do to achieve that goal, and this is very different from what you have been doing. I understand you have sincere beliefs underlying all this, and I respect that you are passionate about it, but what you are presenting is not just lacking any sort of robustness, depth or evidence, it is counter to the accepted science ,so a much more cogent and organised approach is warranted.

Lastly, on the topic of this post. I will make some assumptions about your possible thinking here, and please correct me if I am wrong. I think that the implications of your attack on relativity, if correct, might be utilized in two ways: One, to undermine the notion that even science can know anything if it turns out that SR turns is wrong; and Two, to support a claim to the term ‘knowledge’ that you may have with regards your biblical worldview as it pertains to the nature of reality as fixed in space, which might be justified in your mind, if the established science about non-absolute spacetime - other than with respect to the speed of light - is wrong.

On the first point, I have said that with regards scientific knowledge, that there is no such thing as certainty, and there is always the possibility that science can be wrong. Thus all scientific knowledge - remembering that this is a composite of hypothesis, experiment, facts, data, evidence, mathematical analysis, and theory - and here I am referring to just the theory , is treated as provisional. We say it is as close to the ideal of knowledge we can be sure of, without being ultimately 100% certain. Thus, I see no point here that undermines the concept of knowledge that I have put forward, and nothing that would undermine the concepts of knowledge that broadly underpin the scientific endeavor.

On the second point, no matter how much you repeat your doubts about the science here, you are really only asserting an opinion without any evidence, and providing no cogent alternative theory (that hasn’t already been soundly debunked) to explain the results or any form or mathematical presentation or argument that would tip the balance in your favor. Merely casting doubt as a layperson on well-established science, does nothing to bolster theological claims to knowledge. What you have Terry, is a belief that drives your desire to try to discredit the science. That is all. What you need though is either to work on the problem using the proper knowledge and skills, or on yourself and your personal challenge of accepting the scientific evidence even if it conflicts with your theology.

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Sorry to be the one to break it to you, but I have my doubts that you understand the subject matter of SR and/or NLR at even the elementary level that I can handle such that you could explain to me precisely what it is that I am “putting forward” that is “essentially wrong”.

What work? Copying and pasting links and parroting @mitchellmckain seems slack effort to me.

I prefer “arguing over irreconcilable differences is futile, regardless who’s arguing.”

Peter, Peter, … I’m disappointed in your incorrect paraphrase. My worldview is most definitely NOT biblical. In my worldview, the cosmos is boundless, without beginning or end. I’d welcome a biblical citation that supports it, but I doubt that you’ll be the one to give it to me.

(a) It’s a trivial point, but I’ve never claimed to be an accountant. I have, however, claimed to have a degree in Accounting and to have served as an Internal Revenue Agent in the U.S. Internal Revenue Service. I also happen to have earned a Master’s degree in School Psychology.
(b) I was not aware that I have been attempting to match wits with the greatest minds of the 20th century. They’re members of www.biologos.com? Do tell. In any event, you overstate my case far beyond what even I have in this thread

What? You want me to go first? Why don’t you go first and show me how it’s done

Cut the crap. Think of me as an old fart who has time on his hands and some opinions and a penchant for drawing diagrams that our mutual acquaintance, mitchellmckain, has yet to challenge. And I’ll think of you as a naive, young “seeker” with little time or serious interest in a conversation about the differences between SR and NLR and how it is that the same evidence can be used to support both theories when they conflict with each other. See? Not a hint of theology need be mentioned nor wrestled over.

Wrong again.

[quote=“Peter, post:210, topic:44885”]
I think your efforts would be better directed
[/quote].
You’re not charging me for this therapy session, are ya? :smile:

The mystery is not why I do what I do, but why you’re still communicating with me.

And I think it is a mistake for you to assume that I assume that everyone else is wrong. I don’t.

Peter, I don’t know who you think you’re talking to, but whoever it is, it ain’t me.
With that, I’m going to do us both a favor and end here.

As has been said before by others (before you all got distracted with mouse-clicks), the point is that using the term ‘Relativist’ is absurd, as absurd is calling someone a Gravitationalist or an Electricityist. Just as creationists label people who accept evolution as ‘Evolutionists’, the real purpose is to use this as a pejorative, as a way to imply that the decision to accept the theory is based on things other than the explanatory power of the theory and the strength of evidence in favor of it. In other words, it is used to imply bias and ignorance on the part of those who disagree with you without actually saying so directly.

The people who accept Einstein’s theory of special relatively are doing so because the science has demonstrated that it is the best explanation of the data. Not only that, but it has remained so for roughly 100 years. Such people are not ‘relativists’ but are open minded, clear thinking people with a good grasp of the scientific enterprise and a respect for the work and effort gone to by a lot of brilliant people to get to the truth of the reality of nature. Characterizing people as ‘relativists’ is just rude, dismissive and disrespectful and impugns other people’s motives. I don’t think it is fair to treat people who disagree with you with such contempt.

Oh, but then there are your words… "…an opportunity to express my disdain for those among the religious faithful who dare to imagine that God is a Relativist ". Well at least you kind of admit your true sentiments here. It is very arrogant of you to take the intellectual and theological high-ground here with absolutely nothing to support your case other than your unqualified opinion, and then say that I am the one that needs to show humility! Give me a break!

Regardless of whether or not I have your exact philosophy / theology correct, the rest of my observations still stand Terry.

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That’s as opposed to an irrational fact. :grin: Oh, and don’t forget parsimonious facts. They are as opposed to profligate facts.

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Hadn’t even looked at them. But now I will.

To nail this down we put watches on the triplets which are synchronized in their own rest frame. The watches are not synchronized in the rest frame of the other set of triplets. But by how much depends on the distance between each member of the triplets.

The velocity in the example is 86.6 % of the speed of light.

Let a be the distance between the members of a set of triplets in their own rest frame. If you use the lorentz transformations from one set of triplets to the other you find (0,0), (0,a), (0,2a) is transformed to (0,0), (-1.732a/c, 2a), (-3.464a/c, 4a). But of course we are interested in what they see of the triplets at all the same time, so you have to look for times which transform to the same time in the other frame, i.e. use t1 and t2 so (0,0), (t1,a), (t2,2a) transforms to (0,0), (0, x1’), (0,x2’). This requires t1 = .866a/c and t2 = 1.732a/c, which gives you x1’ = .5a and x2’ = a. In other words in the rest frame of one set of triplets the other triplets are half as far apart but if you look at their watches of that other set of triplets they are not synchronized but each is .866a/c later than the watch of the one who passed them earlier.

You certainly can have an alteration of the order of events going from one inertial frame to the other because of the relativity of simultaneity. For example, suppose the triplet labeled B1 blinks an eye at time = 0 and the triplet labeled B2 blinks an eye at time = .433a/c in their own rest frame. So in their rest frame B2 blinks later than B1. But in the rest frame of the A triplets when B1 blinks his eye then B2 will already have blinked his eye .866a/c earlier. Thus the order of these two events are different in the two inertial frames.

As for the 9 encounters, it should be noted that the numbering does not refer to a specific events but the order in each inertial frame (just asking for trouble). It should also be noted that if the triplets are equidistant, then encounters 3 and 4 happen at the same time and encounters 6 and 7 happen at the same time in each of the respective inertial frames.

There you go, I checked these examples as far as special relativity goes. As far as the NLR claims, I have no assurance that its claims are even consistent so that is too other side of the looking glass for me. Was I supposed to challenge something?

My point exactly. Excellent work 11/10, ******

Thanks!!

At the very least, I would have expected you to challenge the SR version of the scenario if I had made a mistake, … if you had given them your attention. That you don’t have a comment on the NLR version is fine by me.

What point? That SR affirms the relativity of simultaneity? Of course it does. I said so on the first page of my paper.

You don’t, but please don’t let that slow you down.
That I do not accept Einstein’s relativity and say so from time to time to atheists and agnostics is one thing. That I reject the notion that leaders among Christian believers are entitled to or obliged to mix Relativistic vocabulary and phrases with the Gospel is another thing. That you think that I reject Relativity for some biblical or theological reason is nonsense, but far be it from me to diminish your silliness since it seems to give you so much pleasure.

“others”? What “others”? There was only one; and, now, counting your Johnny-come-lately vote, two.

In your opinion.

And, of course, the unbiased and enlightened wouldn’t sink so low as to call a person who rejects the theory of evolution “a creationist” or calling a person who rejects Relativity “a crank” or “a crackpot” or “an Anti-relavist”, would they? :laughing:

Klax waved his ignorance in public to impress and, so far, you and he appear to be the only ones impressed.

Sequence of “Whack-a-mole” events:

  1. To Klax:
  1. To Klax:
  1. Klax to me:

What Klax doesn’t know is that Milena Wazeck’s book was originally written in German, and the German version of the quote above is:

Note that, in the fifth line of the quotation, Oskar Kraus wrote: “durch die absurden Theorien der Relativisten” in 1913.

Now, to see how Geoffrey Koby translated “durch die absurden Theorien der Relativisten” around 2014, go to Google Translate and enter the German phrase and tell me if you don’t get: “through the absurd theories of relativists”.

You don’t like it. Take it up with Oskar Kraus. My use of the term “relativists” has more than 100 years of history behind it. Of course, I don’t expect Klax to stop waving his ignorance around in public, but you might want to reconsider being so easily impressed when he does.

Find an English usage. From an English dictionary. Try the OED.

Where are your clocks?

Screenshot_2021-01-29 Gold Hat portrayed by Alfonso Bedoya - Stinking badges - Wikipedia

“Clocks? We ain’t got no clocks. We don’t need no clocks. I don’t have to show you any stinkin’ clocks!”

I don’t know how they do things in your neighborhood, but where I live, intelligent folks who want to know how Oskar Kraus used the word “Relativisten” would search in a German dictionary or in a German-English dictionary, or they’d just Google Translate it like I did.

Why are you disappointed? You say God is not a Relatavist, which is Biblicist. The error is yours; the universe isn’t boundless, without beginning or end. The multiverse of which it is a particular spacetime continuum, of course, is. Is that from the perfect Treasure of the Sierra Madre? And stop digging a dead translation deeper.

Can you explain why there wouldn’t be a difference in the LIGO experiment, or the Hafele-Keating experiment, gravitational lensing around galaxies, changes in the clock rates in GPS satellites, or muon decay in the atmosphere?

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