What is Biblical Faith?

What? Where did You get that?

I posted something Inflammatory and with significant scriptural and logical flaws?
So it is not lining up with your explanation. Got it! Exactly what was being said. We all have our opinions. My point was in regardless of our opinions let us seek the Lord out and learn of His ways. You accuse my Pastor with significant scriptural flaws and logic. Well I guess no one can come to know absolutely what the scriptures are teaching so to each his or her own.

“Most of the division in the body of Christ comes from personal choice, personal belief, not because of the word of God.
Principle number 2 verse 17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. Literally that first part of this verse in the
Greek text reads, “If anyone should will to do His will.” The word “will” is that free will process that decision making process. When you approach life and approach the word of God what is the motivation? Is it so that you can do His will? That’s all I want to do I don’t care what it is. All I want to do is do His will. You’ll know whether it is right or not from the Bible. Isn’t that interesting? That is a guarantee it says that you shall know of the doctrine whether it be of God or whether I speak of myself. Not all people, not all Christians have the right motive in the approach to the word of God.” Pastor Bill Klein

Advice: if your discussion is adversarial and unproductive, feel free to withdraw.

Okay Christy :blush:

What is Biblical Faith?

Romans 10:5 Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on the law shall live by it. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, Do not say in your heart, “Who will ascend into heaven?” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart (that is, the word of faith which we preach); 9 because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved. 11 The scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.”

Romans 2:12 All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts

Biblical faith is not what you have read, heard, or what you know but what you do – not what you do in expectation of rewards, but what you do for its own sake showing your own heart and nature. This has always been God’s hope and dream – a people with the law of God written on their hearts, ceasing to do evil, learning to do good, seeking justice, correcting oppression, defending the unprotected, and helping those in need, unstained by the dog eat dog rule of the world (Isaiah 1, James 1).

Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear.

That is the faith of those here. We do not close our eyes to what God has shown us in the earth and sky because we have faith that all things which we can see from the Big Bang to evolution ultimately came from the invisible God. To close your eyes, ears, and minds to the world in order to cling to what you want to believe is not faith but willfulness.

That is right. You were not there. Nor were the writers of the Bible. BUT the light (first thing God created) was there and that light comes to us from across the universe for us to see what happened. Will you open your eyes to see it or will you close your eyes and refuse to see anything but what is only in your own head.

The Bible is not a science textbook. Nor is it a book on how to create a universe for dummies book. In Job, God says we do not know how He created things. So… do the readers of the Bible have no knowledge of how God created the universe or are the words of God in Job a lie?

And maybe a pharisaical self-righteous one.

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[quote=“Kelli, post:1, topic:48091”]
Broken down, “By faith we understand (perceive) that the worlds were framed (that is, put together, created) by the word of God, (the word “word” is the word “expression”. When God spoke, He created all things and put them together by His word.

The end result…) so that the things which we see didn’t come from things which appear.” It came from the spoken word of God.
[/quote] The words of Pastor Bill
@Kelli

Hebrews 1:1-3 (NIV2011)
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

There are the words of Hebrews 1:1-3.

Pastor Bill, like most evangelicals, points to the absolute continuity of the Old and New Testaments. Hebrews testifies that the Old and New Testament are Not the same. This letter was written to Jews who had converted to Christ, but were thinking about doing back to Judaism, because of persecution by the Romans, Jews, and perhaps Christian antisemitic bias.

If the OT and NT are basically the same, then there should be no problem in going back to the old valid covenant, but Hebrews said, “Not so.” The old covenant was good, but not good enough, so God the Father made the ultimate sacrifice and sent the Son, the Logos/Word to save humanity,

John 1:1-3 (NIV2011)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

God’s Word is Jesus Christ, the Rational Word of God, not the Bible, not Genesis

Jesus calls us to focus on Him and His Love for all humanity, and not some legalistic Pharisaic ideology that leads to destruction. AMEN

Thank God He did!

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Fair enough, the first point was incorrect

As for John 7:17, that in-context was about knowing whether Jesus’s teaching was of God.

If you wish to extrapolate that as in to knowing others with 100% certainty that their doctrine beyond elementary principles is 100% correct and at all times. The remainder of the statements do not follow. There is no grace is this theology and it is lacking. Additionally, the claim it out of context and guaranteeism or holy entrapment, this does not bear out in scripture.

Was this peaceful and productive?

Because Kelli and Christy mean very different things by “a long tradition of orthodox Bible interpretation.” With Kelli, only people who agree with her and her pastor count as valid Bible interpretation.

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Hi Roger
Yes, we are still speaking of the faith whether it was in the Old Testament or New Testament.
The just will live by faith

Hebrews 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:2

For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Hebrews 11:3

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Hebrews 11:4

By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Hebrews 11:5

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Hebrews 11:6

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Hebrews 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Hebrews 11:8

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Hebrews 11:9

By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Hebrews 11:10

For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Hebrews 11:11

Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

Hebrews 11:12

Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

Hebrews 11:13

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Habakkuk 2:4

Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him:

but the just shall live by his faith.

All examples of those who lived by faith in the Old Testament

This is an encouragement to the New Testament believers as the theme of Hebrews is the just will live by faith.

Jesus said in Luke 18:1 that when the Son of Man comes will He find the faith upon the earth? The apostasy of the last days will be a challenge to faith. Now my favorite scripture that summarizes about faith in the Bible is Romans 4:21. And you remember Abraham is the father of the faith, and those of the faith. Well Abraham was given a promise that he and Sarah would have a son. So Sarah and Abraham waited and waited many years. The promise didn’t come. So Sarah suggested Abraham to go into her handmaid and have a child with her, because maybe it’s Sarah’s fault. Maybe Sarah just can’t bear children. So he goes into Hagar. She gets pregnant. Ishmael is born, and Abraham lifts up Ishmael to God and says, here is Your promise. Thank you Lord. And the Lord says no, that’s not My promise. The book of Romans calls that the works of the flesh, not the son of promise. So Abraham’s like, oh okay. Then God promises that in and through Sarah a year later she will give birth to a son and he will be the son of promise because God did it. When God promises something He does it. And so Romans 4:21 it tells us that Abraham came to a conclusion about what faith is. Faith is believing that this is God’s word and number two, that God, he’s fully persuaded that God is able to fulfill His word. That’s faith. It has nothing to do with our performance. That is denying the power of God if it’s my performance. God promises to do His work through us, not for us to take His work into our hands and run it for Him. And it has been getting worse and worse over the years.”
Pastor Bill Klein

Instead of doing a cut and paste why don’t you just post a link to Pastor Bill’s sermon so we can see what he has to say in context.

BTW, I sat through probably 20 years of these types of sermons and so far I haven’t seen anything new.

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I would challenge the “by faith” of Hebrews 11 and would suggest it might better read “in faith.”

Great question ,and good review. I wonder what you think of the definition of faith as “pistis,” a Greek word used for that in the New Testament, which is often translated as “allegiance”? There’s a book by Matthew Bates that discusses that, too.

It seems that by faith, we learn more and more about God. Amazon.com : Salvation By Allegiance Alone

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‘Allegiance’ does not seem determinative to me. Allegiance is not what makes someone a member of a family. Family membership is a fact (or not), and recognition of that fact and its implications is incredibly important.

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Thanks. I think that adds to the discussion. Maybe you can clarify it a bit.

Not being a Greek scholar, I have a bit of slippery ground here. I understand that there’s a lot of nuance to Greek words. Also, I agree that there are a lot of implications to the word “faith.” With MacDonald, I think we have decades (eternity, in Heaven) to learn more about it.

I remember that someone (was it @GJDS ? Or @glipsnort ? ) made a good comment on the word’s interpretation in the past, but I can’t find it.

Thanks.

The issue is that the semantic range of Greek words don’t map perfectly to the semantic range of English words. That is, words typically have a range of meanings and there might be overlap in places but sometimes you need different words in translation to express the full range of the original. So the semantic range of pistis includes uses where allegiance or faithfulness would be a better translation in English, and faith in English includes the trust/confidence/belief meaning of pistis, but has a semantic range that includes an idea of belief that is more like “cognitive assent to the truth of a proposition” that may not be part of the range of pistis.

But it’s also true that in honor/shame cultures like the ANE, being disowned because you were unfaithful to your family and your responsibilities was a thing that happened.

Nijay Gupta has done some work on pistis recently. I heard him interviewed on this podcast and it was a really interesting discussion of the semantics of the word.

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This is awesome.
Ephesians 4:4

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Ephesians 4:5

One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

It’s only a matter of time before everything he’s ever said will be pasted into this site.

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Yes. I’m curious. Let’s branch this out. How does your faith work in you to be more like Christ in this life–loving your brothers and sisters; both Christian and non Christian; as in James and Jesus’ words? It’s a great outgrowth. Thanks!

Hi Randy
Were you at all ministered by what Shannon posted?

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