Now that just made me laugh and laugh!
…how to explain?
For me it was a little like saying…
It was planned, in the strictly cuckoo sense of the word.
I don’t care if you laugh. Spacetime slices are a thing whether it’s funny to you or not. Argue with Brian Greene if you’re a physicist.
1 Like
I am a physicist.
The physics doesn’t mean what you claim. It is the subtext you add to omnipresent which is nonsensical… saying God is everywhere at the same time. There is no such simultaneity. God’s presence everywhere in space-time is just as Minkowsky as the space-time He participates in. Otherwise it isn’t participation.
1 Like
So God is locked up in a time box as well as a space box. Not the one I know nor that the Bible represents!
He’s not where you are at the same time he is where I am. Huh. That’s interesting, coming from a Christian, maybe the aforementioned cuckoo? Not separating spiritual reality from physical reality? Who does that? Minkowski is irrelevant.
If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
In my pre-university years on a nuclear submarine, I was particularly aware of that verse.
“None of the rulers of this age understood;. for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.”
Yes, it was planned. In fact if you look at the temptations in the wilderness, it’s clear that Satan was fishing to find out what Jesus was really up to, and Jesus carefully gave away nothing at all. Jesus played Satan in a way that nudged him into aiming at killing Him.
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi
1 Like
Mathematically God can be everywhere at the same time, if you apply some n-dimensional geometry – at least that’s what my brother the mathematician said. Though the solution requires defining God as His own universe.
Theologically the matter comes down to God having different modes of being present, a topic I haven’t dealt with in over three decades.
1 Like
Oswald Hoffman once preached a superb sermon on that verse, noting that depending on who it is spoken to it can be either Law or Gospel, either a matter for despair or one for joy – and indeed for the Christian it should be both, first pointing us to our utter unworthiness to be in the presence of God and then to Christ Who is with us always and the Spirit Who works with us to make us worthy.
1 Like
Take a close look at the Sanhedrin’s emissaries sent to cross-examine John the Baptist in John 1 (Who are you?), the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness in the Synoptics (If you are the Son of God), Nicodemus’ interview with Jesus in John 3 (Who are you?) and the taunts hurled at Jesus on the cross in all the gospels (“If you are the Son of God,”)
All of those themes are connected.
I probably should have included the previous verse as well:
Like the story of Noah, the prayer in the garden is a part of scripture which I take very seriously and I am simply not willing to put it down to whining on the part of Jesus. It makes no sense, and saying this demonstrates the human part of Jesus is just insulting. There are too many examples of human beings who do far far far better than this. “I regret I have but one life to give for my country.” (and this was for all mankind!) If Jesus doesn’t even live up to the best of us then that has got to be the lamest God I ever heard of. Jesus is God but as a human being, He is pathetic? I don’t think so!
And the same goes for Matthew 27:46. Yes even suffering on the cross, Jesus is not whining. He is making a scriptural reference to Psalm 22.
Psalm 22: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Why art thou so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry by day, but thou dost not answer;
and by night, but find no rest.3 Yet thou art holy,
enthroned on the praises of Israel.
4 In thee our fathers trusted;
they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 To thee they cried, and were saved;
in thee they trusted, and were not disappointed.6 But I am a worm, and no man;
scorned by men, and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock at me,
they make mouths at me, they wag their heads;
8 “He committed his cause to the Lord; let him deliver him,
let him rescue him, for he delights in him!”9 Yet thou art he who took me from the womb;
thou didst keep me safe upon my mother’s breasts.
10 Upon thee was I cast from my birth,
and since my mother bore me thou hast been my God.
11 Be not far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is none to help.12 Many bulls encompass me,
strong bulls of Bashan surround me;
13 they open wide their mouths at me,
like a ravening and roaring lion.14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint;
my heart is like wax,
it is melted within my breast;
15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
thou dost lay me in the dust of death.16 Yea, dogs are round about me;
a company of evildoers encircle me;
they have pierced my hands and feet—
17 I can count all my bones—
they stare and gloat over me;
18 they divide my garments among them,
and for my raiment they cast lots.19 But thou, O Lord, be not far off!
O thou my help, hasten to my aid!
20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
my life from the power of the dog!
21 Save me from the mouth of the lion,
my afflicted soul from the horns of the wild oxen!22 I will tell of thy name to my brethren;
in the midst of the congregation I will praise thee:
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
all you sons of Jacob, glorify him,
and stand in awe of him, all you sons of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or abhorred
the affliction of the afflicted;
and he has not hid his face from him,
but has heard, when he cried to him.25 From thee comes my praise in the great congregation;
my vows I will pay before those who fear him.
26 The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied;
those who seek him shall praise the Lord!
May your hearts live for ever!27 All the ends of the earth shall remember
and turn to the Lord;
and all the families of the nations
shall worship before him.
28 For dominion belongs to the Lord,
and he rules over the nations.29 Yea, to him shall all the proud of the earth bow down;
before him shall bow all who go down to the dust,
and he who cannot keep himself alive.
30 Posterity shall serve him;
men shall tell of the Lord to the coming generation,
31 and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn,
that he has wrought it.
1 Like
I’m still not agreeing with all of your citation from earlier, but yes, definitely all the rest!
(Was someone suggesting somewhere that Jesus was whining?)
1 Like
I appreciate it Dale. We have our disagreements. But we still agree on many things.
1 Like
Definitely!
His excruciating agony and fear in Gethsemane was not in anticipation merely of the pain of the physical crucifixion but in fear and dismay in anticipation of the separation from whom he loved the most – whom he loved the most with the closest emotional bond of love there could ever be and beyond our imagining, not between father and son but between God the Father and God the Son. Our language is inadequate and there are no words to describe it.
I am not a fan of penal substation. You seem to be advocating a solidarity model of atonement of which I am a fan but as far the statement I pout in bold, there are probably about 3,000 scripture verses that disagree with that. I exaggerate. A little.
I also think the way Judas is portrayed in the Gospels and believed by a lot of Christians, he is a victim, or the most victimized person in history. Some might say Judas’s betrayal was more of a surprise and since Jesus picked Judas, later Christians embarrassed by this had to apologize away some of these details.
The Cross is of central important in that on it, with the resurrection, God shows us the lengths to which he is willing to go for us and that death is defeated. It justifies and vindicates what Jesus said. For me the incarnation itself is just as important as the Cross. God choosing to strip himself of divinity and become one of us? There is nothing anyone could ever sacrifice or give away that is greater than Divinity. God was really trying to show us how much He loves us.
Vinnie
2 Likes
Whining? That strikes me as a very ungracious way of describing Jesus being distraught in Gethsemane.
At any rate, If you look at the gospel portrait: being fearful of death and torture is certainly a part of it. Jesus asks 3 times for the cup to be taken. Jesus would not have been human if he didn’t want to be tortured and die alone on a cross. He came to save the world and his people but it and they rejected him, they are about to have him crucified, a very close follower has betrayed him, his disciples are sleeping and will scatter when he is arrested. He will be totally alone abandoned by everyone. Jesus was at a very low point. In the Gospel of Mark he even asks why God has forsaken him on the cross. Jesus quotes the beginning of this Psalm of lamentation, not the end which has comfort. The beginning. On purpose. He could have just as easily quoted the end. According to the Gospel of Mark, Jesus died alone, everyone had deserted Him, he was victimized and tortured, alienated and abandoned to the point he could no longer feel the Father’s presence. He did it all willingly. Not my will but yours. Notice how Jesus is much more silent throughout Mark than he is in the other accounts.
Of course, the other three evangelists present slightly different images of Jesus on the cross. Bart Ehrman actually wrote an interesting (different and unusual for him) article recently with the title: Why Critical Scholarship on the Gospels Helps Believers in the Bible!
As a Christian I have no choice but to look at the passion narratives in all four gospels and see what each author individually is trying to tell me about Jesus. Mark presents the most human side of Jesus where John presents the most Divine.
But I get your point to some degree. If Jesus was controlling the weather, walking on water, multiplying loaves, commanding countless demons, if Jesus could heal thousands of people, if Jesus knew everyones thoughts, could leave the Cross at will, if Jesus knew the whole plan and was 100% certain of all this and His resurrection in advance, then Gethsemane looks a little odd. But if Jesus was truly human and had fears and doubts, and the gospel portrait accurately reflected the general life of Jesus but are quite a bit embellished, then this makes sense.
Conservatives claim he is going to have to literally take on the sins of the world (as if sin is some real substance he can take on) and the Father would not be able to look on him. I reject this. The better solution IMHO is to take the knowledge limitations in the Gospels seriously. Jesus is just fully figuring out what is going to happen to him and has reached a low point. Jesus was broken. God sent His son into the world but the world rejected him. The compassion and love Jesus had certainly play a part in this. But in the end I am not sorry if Mark’s portrayal of the human Jesus does not live up to your expectations. You need to live up to Jesus, not the other way around.
1 Like
I don’t think I can believe in that.
True… but the point is I don’t believe it is about being distraught over anything happening to Him. I think it about the loss of other alternatives which are better. …like not being murdered – Israel not killing those sent to them by God. The best sacrifice is not being slaughtered but living your life in service to God for the salvation of mankind.
1 Like
Christianity is in hot water then because we believe God thinks the opposite.That’s literally the whole story of the Cross page after page in the New Testament. Jesus died for us. That was his purpose and plan all along. I also see a false dichotomy here. In the case of Jesus he did live his life in service to God for the salvation of mankind. The Cross was what that service ended with and he accepted it (“your will not mine”).
John 15:13: 13Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
Mark 10:45: “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
According to the Gospels Jesus predicted his death multiple times. We can certainly question the historicity of some of these claims but you are describing something I feel is contrary to the central message of the NT.
Are you saying the Cross was not God’s plan in sending Jesus to earth? But since people killed him he made it that?
So… one should arrange being killed for saving the life of a friend? NO! The greatest love is being willing to die for the sake of others – not actual dying by some plan you cooked up.
Yes. I alluded to this when I said…
And what do you say to the hundred verses that disagree with you?