What happened to Jonah in the sea?

[beaglelady]

The stomach is both muscular and glandular. Jonah would have been ground up and saturated with hydrochloric acid and digestive enzymes in a churning mixture that probably would have also contained dead fish. Then muscular contractions would have passed him into the duodenum. Would he really have been able to compose a beautiful and reflective prayer in that situation? His prayer doesn’t even mention being swallowed by any kind of sea creature!!!

But if anyone would like to see what it’s like inside a sperm whale, I have just the video for you. Inside Nature’s Giants: Sperm Whale

[BernieDehler]

If the reader believes in magic, miracles, then you don’t have to worry about it being “more believable.”

[jpm (Phil McCurdy)]

If you feel the story of Jonah is historical, then I see no option but to accept that he was either miraculously preserved in the fish belly, or that “swallowed by a fish” is a part of the story that perhaps is metaphorical or (horrors!) perhaps having lost something in translation and repetition in that the sea is seen as “chaos” and the realm of monsters in Genesis and Job particularly, and we speak today such phrases as being “in the belly of the beast” or being “swallowed by the sea.” I really see no biblical indication of resurrection except indirectly as the story is metaphorically applied to Jesus, and there, whether historical or metaphorical in the original telling, it is metaphor with the limitations thereof.

[Jonathan_Burke (Jon)]

This thread is not off topic. The meaning of the text is being discussed in detail.

[gbrooks9 (George Brooks)]

@jpm

If you feel the story of Jonah is historical, then I see no option but to accept that he was either miraculously preserved in the fish belly, or that “swallowed by a fish” is a part of the story that perhaps is metaphorical or (horrors!) perhaps having lost something in translation and repetition in that the sea is seen as “chaos” and the realm of monsters in Genesis and Job particularly, and we speak today such phrases as being “in the belly of the beast” or being “swallowed by the sea.” I really see no biblical indication of resurrection except indirectly as the story is metaphorically applied to Jesus, and there, whether historical or metaphorical in the original telling, it is metaphor with the limitations thereof.

@jpm

Brilliant! I’ve started a new thread on this point EXACTLY!!!

The Mysterious Symbolism of Jonah and the Fish

So, @Christy … you are going to be a stickler that you can’t pray in Sheol… but you CAN pray in a fish? The “Sheol” reference is a challenge for either interpretation - - with one exception… Tiamat: “Tiamat was later known as Thalattē (as a variant of thalassa, the Greek word for “sea”) in the Hellenistic Babylonian writer Berossus’ first volume of universal history.” or … perhaps Abzu: “The Abzu (Cuneiform: 𒍪 𒀊, ZU.AB; Sumerian: abzu; Akkadian: apsû) also called engur, literally, ab=‘oce…

[Jonathan_Burke (Jon)]

@Eddie

It is not impossible, in Biblical stories, for a character to speak in the past tense about something which is still currently affecting him. Hebrew does not have the range of tenses that other languages have, and the past tense (usually called the perfect in Hebrew grammars) is used quite flexibly, especially in poetic contexts. It is not at all inconceivable that a person trapped in the belly of the whale, though living, might see himself as effectively dead (unless God should relent) and express his situation in the past tense, in a poetic mode.

This is an ad hoc argument. The only reason you are raising this is to defend the interpretation you have already decided on. This is eisegesis. You have provided no grounds on which to parse the grammar here as anything but past tense. It is no surprise that modern English Bible translations and translator guides understand the grammar here as past tense. You are welcome to contest their reasoning with evidence.

@Eddie

In any case, there is no indication in the Jonah story that Jonah uttered those words only after emerging from the belly of the whale. The natural way of reading the story is the opposite.

I agree.

@Eddie

Only a forced reading would try to make out that Jonah’s prayer was uttered after he emerged from the fish.

Yes.

@Eddie

I agree that Lamoureux’s argument is sketchy, but there are many other reasons for regarding the Noah story as heavily artificial in its construction.

But “artificial in its construction” is not necessarily an argument for “non-historical”. Most of the historical narratives in the Old Testament (and New Testament), are artificial in their construction (the histories of the monarchy, and the gospels, being particular cases in point).

@Eddie

Indeed, 25-30 years before Lamoureux’s essay my Hebrew Bible professors were teaching me about literary structures in Genesis 1-11 and how they affected interpretation. Lamoureux’s argument is just the tip of the iceberg.

But where are all the arguments that these literary structures indicate the original writer and audience understood that these chapters were not speaking of historical events? I note you have not addressed the fact that the Genesis flood account matches both the historical, hydrological, and archaeological evidence, including the other ANE accounts of the Mesopotamian mega flood of around 2900 BCE.

@Eddie

I have no idea what you are talking about. I don’t endorse Ham’s views.

I am talking about the fact that you used an argument straight out of Ken Ham’s playbook. This is not a surprise given what you have in common with him.

@Eddie

I suspect she thinks that no such event happened, that the story is didactic fiction. If she says so, will you oppose her on that point?

Of course. I have already opposed this view in this thread.

[quote=“Eddie, post:45, topic:5112”]
“Second Temple Period background” is not the issue. The issue is what senses the Greek text can bear.[/quote]

Second Temple Period background is the issue, because it’s the background which informs us what senses the Greek can bear. This is how lexicons are written.

@Eddie

I’ve taught Biblical Greek.

But when I asked you some basic questions about the lexical range of Greek words like satanas and daimonia during the Second Temple Period, you couldn’t answer them.

@Eddie

If you can show me how to construe the Greek so that all the details of the demon possession stories can be completely explained in terms of modern psychology, without denying a single detail of the factual reports of the Gospels, I’m glad to listen. But that should be done under a separate column on demon possession, not here.

Yes indeed. You could start with the reading list I provided you with previously.

@Eddie

It’s my job as a scholar to report what I think the Bible teaches, whether I like that teaching or not

Then on what basis do you claim that the original writer and audience understood that the Genesis flood narrative is not speaking of historical events?

[dscottjorgenson (Scott Jorgenson)]

Hi Eddie - if you follow the link I gave The Collected Letters of C.S. Lewis, Volume 3: Narnia, Cambridge, and Joy ... - C. S. Lewis - Google Books it should have directed you to page 318 in Google’s online text of the “Collected Letters, Volume 3” book, where his letter to Corbin Carnell begins. Not sure why it isn’t working for you, but in any case here’s an excerpt:

 You see, the question about Jonah and the great fish 

does not turn simply on intrinsic probability. The point is that the whole
Book of Jonah has to me the air of being a moral romance, a quite different
kind of thing from, say, the account of King David or the New Testament
narratives, not pegged, like them, into any historical situation.

Here’s another link I just found, on another site, to the text of the letter: C. S. Lewis on Inerrancy, Inspiration, and Historicity of Scripture

---

As for distinguishing fictional narrative from historical narrative - this is an art, not a science, of course. Judgments will sometimes vary. But to my mind, when one finds a narrative that is full of hyperbole, farce, and other anti-realistic improbabilities, fiction is a pretty good bet.

As for miracles in particular: when I find a narrative that reports one miracle after another at face value and moves on without remark, as if such things are almost blase - such as being swallowed by a fish and surviving 3 days, or being sheltered by a plant that grows to full maturity in a matter of hours - both of which are reported in Jonah with blase factitude - then I am skeptical about their historicity. Contrast this with the gospel accounts of the resurrection - a far smaller miracle than many reported throughout the bible, but one with the ring of verisimilitude on account of how much it is reflected and commented upon. After all, if something miraculous were to actually happen in history, it would surely be marveled at by those who witnessed it, over and over, and they would ponder its significance - not just record it and move on, as if it was an everyday happenstance. But in fiction, especially fantasy writing and so forth, we may expect such blase reportage, when to do otherwise would get in the way of the author’s purpose (eg, propelling the narrative forward in its theme). So, that’s one key difference I see between the NT accounts of the resurrection and so many of the Bible’s other miraculous accounts, especially in OT books like Jonah.

[beaglelady]

Excellent post!

[Walt_Huber]

First, lets remember in the Bible there is no “whale” in the Jonah story, it is a “big fish” or “great fish” depending on the version you are reading. It is entirely possible is wasn’t a “sea creature” at all. The Bible story is just reporting what Jonah thinks happened to him to the best he can remember. Could it be that “angels” were involved and Jonah spent time in “something” for three days? He started in the water and ended up on the beach. He assumed he was in a fish. Could he have been in a vessel of some kind for that time. Was he even conscious for the period? There are no details about what happened to him inside the “fish.”

Since this BioLogos site is all about blending Spirituality and Science, technical answers are usually welcome and considered. For a speculation about this Jonah story (chapter 26) and many others in the Bible, see our book How Did God Do It? A Symphony of Science and Scripture. The solution may not have needed God with a magic wand, would not have needed to violate any laws of physics and not conflict with the basic tenets of Judaism and Christianity.

P,S. @BradKramer We send you a copy of the book. Have you had a chance to review it and have you included it in your reference library?

[beaglelady]

Now I’m dying to get my hands (flippers?) on the commentary on Jonah by Robert Alter. I think I’ll have my library get it.

[gbrooks9 (George Brooks)]

Try removing the phrases that mention the fish. There are only 3 of them.

The story is STILL miraculous … man spends 3 days under water … he describes his time under water… and after 3 days, the water surrenders him back to the shore.

It’s a miracle.

The New Testament describes people stepping out of the graves when Jesus died on the cross. Those are miracles too.

But the latter was LITERALLY presented… Jonah’s story is presented FIGURATIVELY.

[tornbetw2worlds (Shawn T Murphy)]

@collinswriter

I’m writing a novel about Jonah and have come upon a heart stopping discovery. Jonah actually died in the sea creature (whatever it was, probably a blue whale) and when spit onto the beach,

The story of Jonah and the whale brings together all of the symbology of the old testament and the ancient Greeks, but you need to have a little bit of an open mind. Poseidon in Greek mythology is the ruler of the bitter sea, in other words, one other name for Lucifer [Poseidon], the ruler of the underworld [bitter sea].

From the seven days of the restoration, we see the symbology in them, not as rotations around the sun, but phases of the restoration of the fallen. See this post for the details. Does the biblical story of creation make sense to you? If not, why?

Bringing this all together, Jonah was a fallen angel who was under the influence of Lucifer for the first three days of the restoration process, he was spiritually dead for three of the six days of of God’s plan of Restoration. This means that Johan started his restoration on the 4th day, so by the time the earth was created, he had worked his way up to the top level of hell and able to serve as a prophet. Some of the prophets were repented fallen, waiting for Jesus in Paradise and others were angels from heaven. Like Jesus, many of his angels came to earth in a human incarnation to prepare the way.

There is a famous image of Venus, emerging from the [bitter] sea and escaping its ruler Poseidon [Lucifer]. The enlightened Greeks recognized her as the fallen mate of the Archangel Gabriel and saw her as symbol for their shared mission of enlightenment - spiritual evolution.

[Christy (Christy Hemphill)]

Why would you rely on Greek mythology to explain Hebrew religious narratives?

[tornbetw2worlds (Shawn T Murphy)]

Christy,
Thank you for the question. If you are not aware, the Greeks actually maintained the most accurate old testament named the Septuagint or LXX.From the work of Robert Strauil and others, we find that Homer knew Solomon and received a copy of the original version of the bible from him.

The works of Homer and Socrates are all telling different aspects of the same story as the bible tells. The first Christians were Greek. The most prolific biblical early Christian scholar was Greek - Origen of Alexandria. He was the only one in history to use the scientific methods on the many versions of the OT. He painstakingly assembled a six column document that laid out the six old testaments phrase by phrase. The Hexapla compared the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts that were 2nd and 3rd generation rewrites the original version written by the Yahwehist, Solomon. He uncovered many inconsistencies and used this knowledge to produce over 6,000 documents interpreting the Old and New testaments. You can read more in my paper.

Origen: Heretic or Prophet

We have the much to thank the enlightened Greeks including logic, ethics and the scientific method. Religions have lost the logic and reason that it once knew.I am attempting to bring this logical story back into the world where religions fight against logic and science denies the illogical religions. I thought this is what BioLogos was about.

Best Wishes, Shawn

[Christy (Christy Hemphill)]

@tornbetw2worlds

If you are not aware, the Greeks actually maintained the most accurate old testament named the Septuagint or LXX

The Septuagint was translated by Jewish scholars in Egypt when Greek was the lingua franca. It was not produced or maintained by “Greeks.”

@tornbetw2worlds

The first Christians were Greek.

The first Christians weren’t culturally Greek, even if some were Greek-speaking. They were Jews. Jesus probably preached in Aramaic even though the narratives and teaching were later recorded in Greek. Hellenistic Greeks did not enter the scene until the missionary work of Paul and then it was a big issue whether or not they should be required to convert to Judaism via circumcision and Torah observance. Christianity was viewed as a Jewish sect before the Jerusalem Council and the spread of the gospel to the Hellenistic Greek world.

@tornbetw2worlds

I am attempting to bring this logical story back into the world where religions fight against logic and science denies the illogical religions. I thought this is what BioLogos was about.

BioLogos hosts discussions about the intersection of science and Christian faith. But most of the readers here believe consensus scholarship and peer review matter in biblical interpretation as well as in science. If you are going to blatantly contradict hundreds of years of Jewish and Christian consensus scholarship, you need to do more than just offer a brilliant new paradigm that gives a whole new take on everything and says everyone has hitherto been wrong. You have to show why the old paradigm fails and address the mountains of evidence that got people to those conclusions in the first place.

[tornbetw2worlds (Shawn T Murphy)]

I am happy to have more peer review of my work. The problem is that there is no single Christian theology, so it is difficult to get consensus. I would be happy to give you my work “Torn Between Two worlds” to review to see where this is all coming from.

Best Wishes, Shawn

[Combine_Advisor (Charles, confirmed as Thomas)]

He was swallowed into chaos itself and remained dead for 3 days. In my opinion, this makes Jesus’ allusion to the story even more powerful.

[Klax (The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)]

Thank God for rational faith.