“…that they teach the same Christology is not demonstrable…”
Exactly the same person, the same God
God has made it clear, He sent Jesus to help free us from sins lordship. He did this through executing Jesus, who became sin for us. But the devil blinds people from seeing the truth so they wont understand the Good News of the cross of Christ, and be saved from sin.
2Co 4:2 Instead, we have renounced secret and shameful ways. We do not use trickery or pervert God’s word. By clear statements of the truth we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience before God. 3 So if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are dying. 4 In their case, the god of this world has blinded the minds of those who do not believe to keep them from seeing the light of the glorious gospel of the Messiah, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but rather Jesus the Messiah as Lord, and ourselves as merely your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory in the face of Jesus the Messiah.
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YES! I quite agree! AMEN!
We are those who would destroy our only hope, killing those sent to save us. Is there anything more contemptable? Judgement indeed!
Making us know this about ourselves is indeed the first step in redemption.
Not only is this present world passing away because of the death that has control over it, but it has passed away in me because I have died to it through my union with Jesus in His cross. By the faith, trust, that a believer has in the shed life blood of Jesus and in His offering of His soul to become sin, we have been freed from our slavery to sin and the devil. That is a gift from God.
James 4:3 You ask for something but do not get it because you ask for it for the wrong reason—for your own pleasure. 4 You adulterers! Don’t you know that friendship with the world means hostility with God? So whoever wants to be a friend of this world is an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think the Scripture means nothing when it says that the Spirit that God caused to live in us jealously yearns for us? 6 But he gives all the more grace. And so he says, “God opposes the arrogant but gives grace to the humble.” 7 Therefore, submit yourselves to God. Resist the devil, and he will run away from you. 8 Come close to God, and he will come close to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Be miserable, mourn, and cry. Let your laughter be turned into mourning, and your joy into gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the Lord’s presence, and he will exalt you.
This “enmity with the world” motif that you glory in, Cody, has understandable scriptural sources. Paul and other apostles certainly do use that language a lot. There is another side to consider that should also not be dismissed as it comes from no less than the apostle John.
For God so loved the world, that …
So when you declare for the side of “hatred” against the world, if you stop there - you are failing to tell the whole story related in scriptures. Creation is good - was declared good, and that goodness was never revoked even despite our sin. In fact, even tainted with sin as it is - there is still something worthwhile here. So worthwhile that God’s Son was willing to come redeem it.
So what of Paul’s language then? While Paul can glory in the death of the flesh that God’s spirit may be completed in himself, the same Paul also writes of our physical bodies being a temple - one that we should treat as holy and set apart for God. And so valuable and precious is this temple that it (in its redeemed state) is worthy of resurrection. God isn’t just destroying this physical world wholesale so that we can all go somewhere else and live in another dimension. God is actually coming down to live with us here, and to make all things new. The people “flying up into the air” (Thessalonians) at this culmination, are portrayed as the exuberant “greeting committee” for a descending Creator that has come to live among them. Not as some sort of rapturous escape to some distant heaven while creation continues to burn.
Until you get both sides of this right, you aren’t sharing the full gospel. “Hatred” itself can be used lots of different ways, and we shouldn’t be convinced that our modern use of the world captures the same sense of the word that some scriptures may use. When we are told to “hate” our wives and children [for Christ’s sake], that doesn’t mean we should mistreat or abandon them. In fact the presumption is that we should be loving our families very much - and so the true focus of those passages is on how much more we should love Christ - so much so that if forced to do so, we would choose Christ even over family. Paul makes it very clear we are not to literally hate our families (which he says would make us worse than unbelievers!) Hating the sin which we ourselves and others are captivated by is probably closer to hatred even in the modern sense. We need to be taught to actually loath our own sin, that the much-loved sinner might be rescued from its tyranny.
All this is a long way of saying, there is and must be a place for love in [for] this world. Because it would seem God certainly thinks so.
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Without any doubt love is the motivation for God executing Jesus on the cross, offering up His life blood as an atonement, making Him to be sin and a curse for us, and going through judgment, being overcome by death and then being raised up from the very nature of death to become the First Born from the dead and being seated on God’s right hand. It was both love for the slaves of sin in this present age (world) and to fulfill His justice on the sinner. Those who repent and place their full trust, love and obedience in Jesus will be united to Jesus in the whole process of His cross.
For those who place their trust in Jesus, what Jesus went through, we went through in Him.
What Jesus did was to save us from this present age (world) and its ways. To save us from sin and the devil who were our masters and we were helpless to free ourselves from them. Jesus said, “If you love me you will keep my commandments”. The two greatest commandments are to love God with all our heart, mind and strength and to love our neighbor as our self. Loving ourselves is not having a good feeling about ourselves; it’s not liking how we look, or being proud of our great intelligence. It is the fact that we feed and clothe ourselves, we obey God, and work to provide (by His grace) the necessary things we need. If we love our neighbor and see them in need of those necessary things that we provide for ourselves, then we will help them in the same way.
But we are told not to love certain things also. 1 John 2:15-17 15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
We are also told to not associate with immoral people. 1 Cor 5:9-11 9 “I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.” So, those who confess Jesus as Lord but continue in sin, we must separate ourselves from them.
Now people love the idea that Jesus associated with sinners and tax collectors. But it was for the purpose of teaching them about the Kingdom of Heaven, to lead them into the way of righteousness. He didn’t hang out at the local “men’s spa” and ask them how business was. We live on this planet and have to associate with those who are as we once were, “children of the devil”. But in our daily life activity it is “no longer I that lives but Christ that lives in me”. So it is Christ going amongst the dead with the purpose of bringing eternal life to them. It is Christ in us, as we are offering our bodies and lives up as a living sacrifice to God the Father. Our whole purpose of existing is to bring glory and honor to the Father by the spirit of His Son living in us. It is Christ in us being sent into the midst of a wicked and perverse people to shine the light of the Good News of Jesus in our words and actions.
All the people who are still the children of this age (world), who are still slaves of sin need to hear of the love of God for them. And the ultimate expression of that love was in the Cross of Christ. They need to hear the Good News for it is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe.
In my communications with those of this world, the highest and best gift I can give them is the Good News of the Cross of Christ and all that it entails. We all needed to know that we were condemned slaves of sin and there was no way we could save ourselves. But what we could not do, the Father did for us in Christ. In the Cross of Christ, love, mercy and justice were provided for all. But only the humble and broken in spirit will receive its benefits. So it is my privilege, when I see a child of the devil at rest in his life in this present wicked world, to speak God’s Word to him in hopes he is convicted of his sins, repents and turns to God through faith in Jesus.
Recently I was working in a customer’s home; it was a young woman in her 20s with a daughter about 5 years old. I asked if she was married and she replied that her boyfriend lives there. I asked her what she knew about Jesus, she had the look of a deer in headlights. So I began to tell her how Jesus can save her from her slavery to sin. She listened intently and did nothing to divert the conversation in a different direction. I spoke about how I use to be a lustful fornicator but Jesus delivered me from that. I told her fornication was sin and said if your boyfriend sins with you, he is a slave of sin as you are. How can you trust Him to be faithful to you when he is controlled by lust? She continued to listen showing no signs of being repulsed or angry by what I was saying. I explained what Jesus did on the cross and encouraged her to turn away from sin and fully give all her trust and love to Jesus.
That was the love and grace of God being expressed to that young woman. And it was the love and grace of God expressed towards me by allowing that interaction. Believers are His body doing His works and His mouth speaking His words. As He is, so are we in this world.
So, we hate the ways of this present age, world, but we love the people of this world so to bring them into the liberty of the Sons of God through faith in Jesus and what He did in His cross.
And how shall we know which voice is God and which voice is the devil? Should we simply believe whatever they call themselves? Should we submit ourselves to any man walking down the street who says they are God? Perhaps we should watch how they talk and behave and see what their character is like? Are they at least someone of good character or are they more like a criminal, like a mobster or terrorist?
Oh I can bet what you will say… whatever matches the Bible right? Which part? I mean, if someone shows you they have committed genocide just like the god in the Bible then is that all you need before you will submit yourself to them? So… not that part of the Bible, right? You could make Jesus the measure of God… sounds good to me but I bet you have problems with that… you would prefer someone who agrees with all your doctrinal beliefs wouldn’t you? If so, then it seems to me your understanding of the Bible is the God you worship, while I would prefer to put my trust in the understanding of God.
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(Warning! Multiple citations of the Word of God ahead.)
Will use Jesus as the measure.
Heb 1:1 God, having spoken in former times in fragmentary and varied fashion to our forefathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by a Son whom he appointed to be the heir of everything and through whom he also made the universe. 3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word. After he had provided a cleansing from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Highest Majesty.
So after Jesus offered up His life blood, His soul, for an atonement to set us free from sin, He raised up from death a victor over sin so we would share in His victory, according to the scriptures.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates his love for us by the fact that the Messiah died for us while we were still sinners. 9 Now that we have been justified by his blood, how much more will we be saved from wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life! 11Not only that, but we also continue to boast about God through our Lord Jesus the Messiah, through whom we have now been reconciled.
And now He waits till that great and terrible Day of the Lord.
2Pe 2:6 and if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and destroyed them by burning them to ashes, making them an example to ungodly people of what is going to happen to them; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man who was greatly distressed by the immoral conduct of lawless people— 8 for as long as that righteous man lived among them, day after day he was being tortured in his righteous soul by what he saw and heard in their lawless actions—9 then the Lord knows how to rescue godly people from their trials and to hold unrighteous people for punishment on the day of judgment, 10 especially those who satisfy their flesh by indulging in its passions and who despise authority. Being bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to slander glorious beings*
Rev 6:16 They told the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the lamb. 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to endure it.
Rev 19:11 Then I saw heaven standing open, and there was a white horse! Its rider is named Faithful and True. He administers justice and wages war righteously. 12His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many royal crowns. He has a name written on him that nobody knows except himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is called the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven, wearing fine linen, white and pure, follow him on white horses. 15A sharp sword comes out of his mouth to strike down the nations. He will rule them with an iron rod and tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe that covers his thigh he has a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Fear God and depart from evil, for the wrath of the Lamb of God is coming on all who continue to do evil.
Yes, I will use Jesus as my example.
God didn’t execute Jesus. The Romans and religious authorities did.
If Love is to be seen as a motivation to murder innocent people, then as Mitch says, your understanding sees God’s actions as indistinguishable from the devil’s.
That one opening sentence of is just deeply, disturbingly wrong in so many ways.
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Read Isaiah 53 and tell me whos will it was to do those things to Jesus.
Who provided the Lamb of God to be slaughtered, sacrificed, and for what reason was He offered up?
What a glorious thing to behold, the Lamb of God on the alter of the cross. Taking upon Himself the sins of the world. He who knew no sin, became sin for us, so we would become the righteousness of God. I will only glory in the cross of Christ, for through it I am crucified to the world and the world to me. The cross, the instrument of execution, became the very alter that the Lamb of God which God provided was slain on. The Lamb of God who ours sins were placed on, was even set apart for sacrifice by Israel’s high priest.
John 11:49 Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! 50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.
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I’ve read all those things, Cody … Many times. But your trouble is that I’ve also read all the rest of the Bible too, and I can’t throw out all the rest of scriptures just to validate your particular interpretation of a few texts. I will strive to follow the teachings of Christ and Paul and their spiritual heirs instead. My hope is with them and with the tender loving Father of Christ.
You’ve been taught many traditional things (traditions of men) that are now taken to be sacred creed, and I have no interest in dissuading you from those. God will make the truth clear as you have need of it in his own time. And I no longer strive to have any part in that human tradition that uses old understandings of God to perpetuate now (even after Christ!) the thought that God is less righteous than even the lowest of human fathers. With John, I will say instead that “God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all.”
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Do me a favor, pick Isaiah 53 apart and explain to me, who is doing what to whom, and what is the purpose of doing it.
By the way, it’s not a few scriptures, it is from Genesis to Revelation why God gave the Lamb of God as a sacrifice to save us from our slavery to sin.
That old understanding of God, is the revelation of our salvation from sin and condemnation through the blood of The Lamb of God.
Can anyone out there pick Isaiah 53 apart and explain to me, who is doing what to whom and why is he doing it?
Don’t be foolish and slow of heart as the disciple on the road to Emmaus.
Luk 24: 25 Then Jesus told them, “O, how foolish you are! How slow you are to believe everything the prophets said! 26 The Messiah had to suffer these things and then enter his glory, didn’t he?” 27 Then, beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them all the passages of Scripture about himself.
How deep the Father’s love for us,
How vast beyond all measure,
That He should give His only Son
To make a wretch His treasure.
How great the pain of searing loss –
The Father turns His face away,
As wounds which mar the Chosen One
Bring many sons to glory.
Behold the man upon a cross,
My sin upon His shoulders;
Ashamed, I hear my mocking voice
Call out among the scoffers.
It was my sin that held Him there
Until it was accomplished;
His dying breath has brought me life –
I know that it is finished.
I will not boast in anything,
No gifts, no power, no wisdom;
But I will boast in Jesus Christ,
His death and resurrection.
Why should I gain from His reward?
I cannot give an answer;
But this I know with all my heart –
His wounds have paid my ransom.
Yep. Listened to that song on the way home from church.
Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!…
How do you understand this statement, Mervin? A penny for your thoughts.
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Ill up that to a quarter, maybe even a $1.00.
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For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our trespasses and was raised to life for our justification.
Romans 5:6
For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.
Romans 5:7
Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die.
Romans 8:32
He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things?
But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:20
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound
John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 John 3:16
Hereby perceive we the love of God , because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
Thanks for your willingness to engage in this discussion, Mervin. I am interested in the way you interpret these passages. I’m learning all the time.