I have no doubt of God’s Holiness, nor of how God is to be approached. The Prophets and Psalmists questioned God, and I think any Bible-reader is in good company in doing so. Indeed, the Bible, like everyday life, is so full of complexities that one can hardly avoid doing so.
FWIW, I don’t. But his experience of God is not a rule for me. The Bible is canonical - the Christian experience of St Paul, is not. I disagree with what he said, because what he said was illogical, and no solution to the difficulty raised.
Bad logic from an Apostle is no more valid than bad logic from anyone else, and giving bad logic a pass because it is in the Bible, risks weakening one’s ability to reason correctly. No one has a duty to reason badly, merely because an inspired book contains unsound reasoning.
If reason is truly a gift of God, it cannot be turned off merely because one is discussing the phenomena within the Bible. If we are allowed to reason about the unity of Isaiah, about the theological implications of evolution, about the date of Revelation, or about the Biblical doctrine of the Atonement, then I think we are allowed to criticise unsound reasoning in Romans by St Paul. To criticise his reasoning, implies sufficient respect for him to take an interest in his argumentation.
Goodnight to you 
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Maybe you are giving a one-sided picture of being a believer?
In perfect love there is no fear. Living with God is mostly inner peace, comforting trust in Him and lack of fear, at least after you learn to trust in God through experience. Knowing that He is with you and knows what you need even before you ask can give comfort and courage, if you truly seek His will. Of course, if what I want is clearly against His will, then it’s not so comforting.
One cannot be on two roads simultaneously. All of us, believer or not, have to make choices - you cannot get everything. Following Jesus means that you get something and cannot get something else. My opinion is that what we gain by following Jesus is more valuable than what we lose.
It’s true that sometimes following Jesus may lead to social exclusion from certain groups, losing a job, mockery or even violence. In certain countries, it may lead to losing everything, even your life. This may cause suffering. Yet, because Jesus died for us, we don’t have to suffer to save ourselves. There is no need to inflict unnecessary fear and suffering in our lives. If we face one day persecution, God will give us strength and comfort in that time. In western societies, most of us don’t need to face hard persecution during our life. The hardest decision for us is often deciding every morning to follow Jesus, even if we feel that we will lose something because of it.
1 Cor 9:27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize."
1 Peter 4:1-2 Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin.
Knor, I believe what Ralphie may have been expressing was the fight against the flesh that so often rises up. It’s the crucifying of the flesh that is a battle, though we overcome it by the blood of the Lamb, the word of our testimony and not loving our lives to the death. Our spirits have been crucified with Christ, Born Again and are New Creations in Christ, but the battle with the flesh still remains. Also, our minds were under the control of the flesh for the years that we were slaves to sin, so they must be renewed so that the whole person can be transformed into the very image of Christ, in the here and now.
There are also the struggles we have in our labor of love for the lost.
2 Cor 6:4-10
Rather, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance; in troubles, hardships and distresses; 5 in beatings, imprisonments and riots; in hard work, sleepless nights and hunger; 6 in purity, understanding, patience and kindness; in the Holy Spirit and in sincere love; 7 in truthful speech and in the power of God; with weapons of righteousness in the right hand and in the left; 8 through glory and dishonor, bad report and good report; genuine, yet regarded as impostors; 9 known, yet regarded as unknown; dying, and yet we live on; beaten, and yet not killed; 10 sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything.
We rejoice in the Lord though, knowing our labor of love is not in vain. The Lord knows those who are His and let all who call on the Lord depart from evil.
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These things may be said in many ways. Although using words picked from the Bible and Christian jargon may feel more accurate, I try to express these thinks in a way that is more common in everyday discussions. Those who know the Bible don’t need long citations, those not familiar may misunderstand or feel that the ‘preaching’ is not friendly discussion. Sometimes I get myself a better understanding of something, if I word it in a way that is more common for most of us.
Deciding to follow Jesus every morning is a good start. As everybody, we must make decisions in everyday life, select what we believe is right and drop what is wrong. This is not always easy as we may be tempted to act in a selfish way. Some things may seem so important to us or promising that making the right decision may not feel easy. I guess this is what the expression ‘fight against the flesh’ means. For Christians, this may be a bit more challenging than for others as also our thinking matters, not just acts.
Following Jesus is a process with gradual growth. Although we are clensed when we receive the new life with Jesus, changing towards ‘the image of Christ’ happens slowly. We are like seedlings that need to grow first roots, then branches and then develop fruit. It may be frustrating to notice that we are far from perfect and growth is slow, but luckily God is prepared to forgive our failures if we ask forgiveness and continue to follow Jesus. Our repeated failures may be disappointing and frustrating to us but if we spend time with Jesus and feed ourselves with right kind of input, growth happens.
My attitude is that it is better to look at Jesus and remember the great things we have received and will receive, rather than to look at myself and churn the thought that oh, this is so difficult.
That is a good attitude to have. Those who believe, place all their hope and trust in Jesus and what He has accomplished for us. So when temptations of the flesh come we are to look to Him for deliverance from them, (all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved).
But in reference to suffering, Rom 5:3 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us." So we are not ignorant of the fact that there is different types of suffering in the believers life.
In my conversations with unbelievers, I talk about what God says about sin, so the Spirit has the Word to use to convict them of it. I also speak of the power over sin that those who are in Christ have. But I also do as Jesus did, I let them know there will be trials and hardships and a great cost for those who follow Jesus. By stating the following words of Jesus, they are not lead to believe that following Jesus is just something you add to your life. He becomes your Lord, master, your very life, and that comes with a cost in this life.
Luke 14:25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters — yes, even his own life — he cannot be my disciple. 27 And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
28 “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it? 29 For if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, 30 saying, 'This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.”
One of my personal experiences that happened decades ago was with a girl I was going to marry. When I came to Jesus, the cost to follow Him was leaving her behind. Not that I didn’t try and draw her with me, but she rejected Jesus and so to follow Him I had to forsake her (hate her). Though it was sad to not have her follow, I did not linger on this supposed lose, but placed my affections on my new love. And what I thought I could never give up, her, was not devastating to me because of the joy i had of finding a new love.
So if I set my affections on Him and the Kingdom of Heaven, those affections and desire work within me to save me from the temptations of the flesh and the love of this present age (world). I’ve counted the cost and concluded, that Jesus is of more value than all this world has to offer.
Luke 14:33 any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.
It’s rather amazing that you accuse the Apostle Paul of bad logic, of all people.
It’s distinctly more likely that you are out of understanding and not on to his reasoning.
Paul was not talking about his experience there, was he. Just maybe Paul is presenting God’s teaching. Logically. Sure, you can ask God what he’s doing, but what was God’s response to Job? It was entirely reasonable of God the Majestic Sovereign* of the cosmos to answer the way he did. It’s actually quite similar to Paul’s ‘browbeating’. God was browbeating? I will defend his right.
Compare:
* “the Majestic Sovereign” is closely related to another term used here recently, twice, actually. Can you figure out where? Here and here.
I participated in the blood and body of Jesus tonight. It was a very strong reminder of my union with The Son of Man, in His becoming sin and a curse, being crushed at the will of the Father, to carry me through death, judgement and resurrection. My head, united me with Him, to bring me into the salvation that God had planned and accomplished and has revealed to me by the example of the Law of Moses, the preaching of the prophets, Jesus and His apostles.
And to think that there is a man, who entered death for me, and rose up, stripping off powers and principalities all for the sake of setting me free from sin, and the Father’s glory. There is a man, seated on the right hand of the Father on His thrown. A man who is my high priest, able to help me in my time of need, and by His blood has granted me access to the Father’s throne.
No one took His life, He laid it down as an offering for my redemption. He purchased my forgiveness by offering His life blood and body in place of mine. And tonight, I remembered that and received more understanding, and by that, it gives me the ability to live in freedom from my old masters.
Thank God for The Son of Man.
In response I tried to learn how you interpret scripture.
If the evangelical activity of most pressing interest for you is to enter into the Bible truth/errancy wars then you’ve already made your foundational commitment. Just don’t be surprised to discover that other Christians may not share your urgency for that same concern.
I don’t know what that is, “evangelical activity”. “Wars”? If that is my most pressing evangelical activity, to enter into inerrancy wars, I have already commited to its foundation? I don’t know what you are saying. My “urgency”? Beats me.
I am finished. Thanks. God bless you.
It was the LORD’S will to crush him. It was His soul that was crushed and was made an offering for sin. Jesus poured out His very soul as a sacrifice for us . Many people may only look at His body being offered up, but His soul, the man, was offered up as a sacrifice for sin. The Son of Man who was the Lamb of God gave His soul to reddem, to free us from sin and condemnation. And God accepted His offering and gave life to His dead soul after He became sin for us.
Isa 53:10Yet the LORD was willing to crush him, and he made him suffer. Although you make his soul an offering for sin, he will see his offspring, and he will prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will triumph in his hand.
There are many aspects to the born from the Spirit experience that cannot be understood without the experience. The universe looks entirely different.
Dr. Ehrman described it, "For me, at the time, it felt like an enormous relief, a lifting of burden, a sense of connecting with the universe in a way I never had before. Very powerful!”
Pardon this question from an agnostic, but I’ve never heard quite this interpretation before. That “Christ died for our sins” is familiar, but I’ve never encountered the interpretation that God killed Jesus instead of killing humanity.
Q1: Do you have a source for this interpretation, a particular denomination, writer, or translation?
Q2: I don’t mean to be fussy, but didn’t God already promise not to wipe out humanity again? (ie: rainbows). Is there any conflict here? I don’t expect a full explanation, I’m just curious if anyone else sees a possible contradiction here?
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I will be glad to answer when I get home from work.
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Richard Beck completed his series of blogs relating to the evolution of salvation theology, with some interesting points made as relates to Western thought on the subject dealing with the move from participatory metaphysics (which he refers to as enchantment as I understand him) and materialism. I think my own thinking has moved from sacrificial atonement back to a more Christus Victor theology as time has gone on, though no one explanation is complete and some measure of multiple explanations what happened on the cross are needed.
Er. … no. What He said is:
- 8 Then God spoke to Noah and to his sons with him, saying, 9 “Now behold, I Myself do establish My covenant with you, and with your descendants after you; 10 and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you; of all that comes out of the ark, even every beast of the earth. 11 I establish My covenant with you; and all flesh shall never again be cut off by the water of the flood, neither shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth.” 12 God said, “This is the sign of the covenant which I am making between Me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all successive generations; 13 I set My bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between Me and the earth. 14 It shall come about, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow will be seen in the cloud, 15 and I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and never again shall the water become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16 When the bow is in the cloud, then I will look upon it, to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth.” 17 And God said to Noah, “This is the sign of the covenant which I have established between Me and all flesh that is on the earth.”
the ultimate reason that suffering exists in the universe is so that Christ might display the greatness of the glory of the grace of God by suffering in himself to overcome our suffering. The suffering of the utterly innocent and infinitely holy Son of God in the place of utterly undeserving sinners to bring us to everlasting joy is the greatest display of the glory of God’s grace that ever was, or ever could be. john piper
the suffering of Jesus was not an afterthought, as though the work of creation did not go the way God planned. Before the foundation of the world God had a book called “the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.” The slaying of the Lamb was in view before the work of creation began. j piper
this piper cat is good. it was always God’s plan to have Christ suffer and die for our sins since before we existed, before anyone sinned
I use different translations but mostly the NIV. No denomination or writer, just stating what God, the Law of Moses, Prophets, Jesus and the apostles said. In reference to what denominations teach, I can’t tell you as I have not read any official statements from them. I have gleaned from talking about Jesus to my customers and people I see throughout the day, what they think about the Good News of Jesus that I tell them. Most don’t understand what He did on the cross other than along the lines of what you said, “That “Christ died for our sins”. Other than that statement they can’t really explain what that means and how it really affects them. Other than they believe they are forgiven.
2 Cor 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.
Isa 53:4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, ( “He took up”, shows purpose ) yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; (the purpose was for our sins ) the punishment that brought us peace was upon him , (the people involved in killing Him did not know this was what was happening, God did, it was His plan) and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Again purpose, the Lord has laid on him our iniquity, sin) Isa 53:10-11 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering , (this shows that it was the Father’s intention to execute Jesus in our place and to cause Him to suffer ) he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. 11 After the suffering of his soul,(His soul, the man Jesus, suffered) he will see the light [of life] and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.( The Son of Man was the corporate head of mankind who came for this purpose, to bear their iniquities)
The following scripture shows purpose and plan from the beginning. Rev 13:8 all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
So it was the Father’s will to make Jesus sin, so that through God’s judgment on Him, God judged sin. Then He was resurrected to true life, so those who fully lean on Jesus for help and safety, will be freed from their slavery to sin and the devil. The inward, the true man Jesus became sin, died in sin, was consumed by true death, was judged and then rose up from death to life. I’m not talking about His body at all at the moment, just the inward man. The death He died was to sin so that we would die to sin. When He rose, He was the First Born from the dead. Others had risen like Lazarus, but it was not the same kind of resurrection. Jesus was consumed by death, but when He raised it was unto true life. He was freed from true death and sin, all who trust and continue to trust Him, are freed from sin and true death.
Now those who trust in His cross, go through that with Him as a part of the Son of Man, our corporate head. And now we are Born Again by the Father’s will. Jesus said what is born of the spirit is spirit. It is the spirit of the man, the true man, that is Born Again, a New Creation, united to the First Born from the dead.
Col 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
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Piper is whack job. Suffering exists in our infinitesimal universe because. Because it does. It’s not for anything. It has no meaning, no lesson. It’s incidental to existence, to creation. Creation hurts everyone involved. And Christ’s suffering in solidarity, apology, was Earth local, has nothing to do with the trillions of worlds in our universe of infinite.
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And by what spirit or word did you receive this revelation?