What happened on the cross?

I use different translations but mostly the NIV. No denomination or writer, just stating what God, the Law of Moses, Prophets, Jesus and the apostles said. In reference to what denominations teach, I can’t tell you as I have not read any official statements from them. I have gleaned from talking about Jesus to my customers and people I see throughout the day, what they think about the Good News of Jesus that I tell them. Most don’t understand what He did on the cross other than along the lines of what you said, “That “Christ died for our sins”. Other than that statement they can’t really explain what that means and how it really affects them. Other than they believe they are forgiven.

2 Cor 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.

Isa 53:4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, ( “He took up”, shows purpose ) yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; (the purpose was for our sins ) the punishment that brought us peace was upon him , (the people involved in killing Him did not know this was what was happening, God did, it was His plan) and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Again purpose, the Lord has laid on him our iniquity, sin) Isa 53:10-11 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering , (this shows that it was the Father’s intention to execute Jesus in our place and to cause Him to suffer ) he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. 11 After the suffering of his soul,(His soul, the man Jesus, suffered) he will see the light [of life] and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.( The Son of Man was the corporate head of mankind who came for this purpose, to bear their iniquities)

The following scripture shows purpose and plan from the beginning. Rev 13:8 all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

So it was the Father’s will to make Jesus sin, so that through God’s judgment on Him, God judged sin. Then He was resurrected to true life, so those who fully lean on Jesus for help and safety, will be freed from their slavery to sin and the devil. The inward, the true man Jesus became sin, died in sin, was consumed by true death, was judged and then rose up from death to life. I’m not talking about His body at all at the moment, just the inward man. The death He died was to sin so that we would die to sin. When He rose, He was the First Born from the dead. Others had risen like Lazarus, but it was not the same kind of resurrection. Jesus was consumed by death, but when He raised it was unto true life. He was freed from true death and sin, all who trust and continue to trust Him, are freed from sin and true death.

Now those who trust in His cross, go through that with Him as a part of the Son of Man, our corporate head. And now we are Born Again by the Father’s will. Jesus said what is born of the spirit is spirit. It is the spirit of the man, the true man, that is Born Again, a New Creation, united to the First Born from the dead.

Col 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

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Piper is whack job. Suffering exists in our infinitesimal universe because. Because it does. It’s not for anything. It has no meaning, no lesson. It’s incidental to existence, to creation. Creation hurts everyone involved. And Christ’s suffering in solidarity, apology, was Earth local, has nothing to do with the trillions of worlds in our universe of infinite.

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And by what spirit or word did you receive this revelation?

Are you sure? Couldn’t it be that God has a way to use suffering for good? If God exists, wouldn’t we hope He could redeem all suffering? Wouldn’t it be like God to take something as awful as pain and to turn it around and use it to his and our benefit? Why wouldn’t God do such? You know what I mean? Or, does looking at suffering from this perspective necessarily make God out to be a monster?

Who is?
 

Klax  The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.

What was that faith in, exactly?

There’s a CCM song with a line that says God recycles pain into gain. Job would concur, and so would many others, for instance Maggie and myself. Recall my nephrectomy account – death would have been fine and gain for me (not my wife, though), but that wasn’t the current plan.

In Ravensbrück, a brutal death camp in the heart of Germany, Betsie, whispered this to Corrie just before dying from the extreme winter conditions: “We must tell them that there is no pit so deep that He is not deeper still. They will listen to us, Corrie, because we have been here.”

The Hiding Place is about the Ten Boom family–how they sacrificed their lives to set Jews free during WW 2.

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Klax, The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.

What if it causes suffering to express faith in love?

The ultimate reason suffering exists is so that George might display the greatness of the glory of the grace of George by suffering in himself to overcome our suffering. The suffering of the utterly innocent and holy sacrificial offering in place of undeserved sinners to bring everlasting joy to George’s followers and is the greatest display of the glory of George’s grace that ever was or ever could be.

Sounds like there is a new serial killer on the loose.

TEN BOOM: One of the most cruel things I have suffered was when in the concentration camp, we had to stand naked. They stripped us of all our clothing. And I said to Betsy, my sister, “I cannot bear this, this is so terrible.” But it was suddenly as if I saw Jesus at the Cross. It was the Holy Spirit who turned my eyes to Jesus. And the Bible tells that He…He hanged there naked, they stripped him of all his garments, and he hung there for me, and by my suffering, I could understand a fraction of the suffering of Jesus. And it made me so happy, so thankful that I could bear my suffering! Love so amazing, so divine, demands my life, my soul, my all.

Refreshing memories, but maybe not understanding:
 

That would be why Jesus died for his siblings, instead of them suffering the penalty themselves.

 

This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters.
 
1 John 3:16

My interpretation of this is that Father’s will was to save us. Because we sinned, Jesus had to come to handle the problem. This is not the same as saying that God’s will from the beginning was to kill Jesus.

Assuming that God is not tied by time as we are, God knew from the start that humans will not do the right things. He planned a solution to that problem. When the time was right, Jesus came and the problem was handled. Again, this is not the same as saying that God’s will from the beginning was to kill Jesus.

There is a difference between wanting to cause suffering vs. having to cause suffering to save someone. I was willing to let my son suffer because of a medical operation. I certainly did not want suffering but surgery was the only possibility to save his life. It was hard to watch how he suffered several months after the surgery but as this was the only possibility to give him a life, surgery was planned and done.

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Thank you. That was my understanding as well, but it had never occurred to me that God might want to wipe out all of humanity again by any means. This is a little corner of theology I had not encountered before.

AND thank you too for this expression of your faith and detailed explanation. As I noted to Terry, I had not encountered this interpretation before, even mentioned in passing. :slight_smile:

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Revelation 13:8 “the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world”, is not a stand alone revelation, it has the support of the Law of Moses, the prophets, John the baptist, Jesus, and the apostles.

The way that God handled the sin and judgment issues was to send Jesus. Carefully read Isaiah 53 and you can see it was the Father’s purpose and plan. It starts out in verse one, “Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?”
Jesus is called, “the arm of the LORD”, therefor it is God at work and all that follows in chapter 53 is God’s will and plan.
It was God’s will for Jesus to, take up our infirmities and carry our sorrows, to be pierced for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities, to receive the punishment that brought us peace, to heal us by his wounds, for the LORD to lay on Him the iniquity of us all, to be cut off from the land of the living for our transgression he was stricken, it was the LORD’S will to crush him and cause him to suffer and make his life a guilt offering, the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
Again, carefully read the chapter and see what God did by sending the Word to become The Son of Man to deliver us from our enemies.

Very nice proof text. Jesus gave his life to save us from sin.

A “proof text” is not necessarily a good thing, however, because they can be taken out of context, or vacuously repeated.

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People use suffering for good, make meaning from it, transcend it, sometimes inspired by the story of God in Christ. Suffering in itself isn’t for anything. And yes, I’m quite sure.

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“And we know that all things work together for good to them who love God…”

I can turn good into bad in a heartbeat. I can turn anything into bad in a heartbeat. I wouldn’t trust myself to make a cake. I could kill people. I don’t know what I’m doing. “I’m dangerous, Jerry. I’m very, very dangerous.” Kramer

Yet, yetyetyetyetyetyet, with God, with God, I can be the complete idiot that I am and God can make me seem not quite so disgusting. You know what I mean?

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a good thing

Dearest BioLogos, I realize I am way out of line, but given the treacherous times in which we live, I thought perhaps a little levity might be in order. (If I’m wrong, this was Mitch’s idea, soley, and he should be punished severely, I agree.)

Good thing
Good thing
The one good thing in my life
Has gone away, I don’t know why
She’s gone away, I don’t know where
Somewhere I cannot follow her

[Pre-Chorus]
The one good thing didn’t stay too long
My back was turned and she was gone

[Chorus]
Good thing
Where have you gone? (Do, do-do-do)
My good thing
You’ve been gone too long (Do, do, do-do-do)

[Verse 2]
People say I should forget
There’s plenty more, don’t get upset
People say she’s doing fine
Mutual friends I see sometime

[Pre-Chorus]
That’s not what I want to hear
I want to hear she wants me near
Then one day, she came back
I was so happy that I didn’t ask
Morning came into my room
Caught me dreaming like a fool

[Outro]
Good thing, my good thing
(Do, do-do-do)
My good thing, where have you gone
(Do, do, do-do-do)
My good thing, my good thing
(Do, do-do-do)
Where have you gone
It’s been so long
(Do, do, do-do-do)

I certainly believe that.

What I do not believe is any of the pagan black magic stuff… like…

Jesus gave his life in order to appease God.

God requires a blood sacrifice ritual in order to forgive people.

Jesus’ crucifixion paid for indulgences so Christians can sin without consequences.

But…

Cheap forgiveness often does more harm than good, so God has to make us understand how bad sin is and the damage it does. Like what? Like causing us to kill the innocent and even those God has sent to save us. The point is to save us from sin by removing sin itself and not to give us the freedom to sin without consequences.

I was going to respond point by point to what you said, but I have labored to present the Gospel of Christ through the testimony of prophets, Jesus and the apostles. And yet you still choose not to believe their testimony. So I will leave you to your unbelief in the message I have made clear.

And yet, I will continue in my trust in the cross of Christ which caused me to be crucified to the world and the world to me. That I died to sin in Christ and it no longer is my master. That I was raised up with Him, Born Again, and made to be a New Creation in Him. That the blood of Christ has cleansed me from my past sins and by His Spirit I am empowered to overcome the temptations that arise from the flesh daily. Jesus is my Lord, my strength, my righteousness and my life. And from Him being these things, He is daily saving me from those things I was powerless to save myself from, mainly, sin, the devil and God’s just condemnation of me.