Your beliefs are cute, too.
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It was the way you said it, not that you hold different beliefs. Good grief.
You might as well have said that my father (or Father) was a hustler and a mere showman.
And you do not realise that you’re using the word incorrectly. Objective fact is independent of testimony. It is testable.
Thank you for your thoughtful response, as always. However, when it comes to condemning all humanity to death because of Adam’s sin; destroying children and animals who had not sinned in Noah’s flood, killing the infant firstborns in the plagues of Egypt, exterminating the Midianite men, married women, and children because of past inhospitality, among other atrocities, It seems to me that this is more than corrective punishment we see from parents. Both the savagery and tenderness appear to reflect man’s incomplete understanding of what happens to us as God’s judgment. It’s natural for an abused child to say they must have deserved something painful–it helps to adjust to the pain, and give hope that they can avoid it.
I am not saying God has changed. It’s our understanding of God that must have changed. I’m still learning in that regard. In fact, I’m sure I don’t have a good enough impression of who God is yet.
Some of this may have come from a lack of understanding of nature–they thought, as in Psalm 104, that God personally watered the earth, etc. However, in many of the passages, it’s thought that He personally ordered the Israelites’ atrocities.
I echo George Macdonald
If it be said by any that God does a thing which seems to me unjust, then either I do not know what the thing is, or God does not do it…Least of all must we accept some low notion of justice in a man, and argue that God is just in doing after that notion
Some references: * Psalm 137: 8, 9
* Numbers 31:13-18
* Deuteronomy 20:16
* Joshua 6:21
I Sam 15:3
Thanks.
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I think I see where you’re coming from finally, Dale. If describing some traditional divine attributes as “bright and shiny” offends you as being sacrilegious that was not my intention. From my perspective many of the alleged attributes of God are high praise from a time long ago, superlatives intended as high praise. But I now see that my manner of speaking can also be taken as disparaging the orthodox view and that was not my intention. I don’t think orthodox views are ridiculous and I do apologize to you and anyone else who felt I was defacing what you hold dear.
My actual opinion on the status of the orthodox view of the Christian god is that it doesn’t matter. Whatever it is which gives rise to God belief is ultimately unknowable so the only relevant consideration regarding how one conceives what it is one is addressing is that if helps you to feel that bond.
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It’s also been said that Jesus did not come here to change God’s mind about humanity. He came to change humanity’s mind about God.
And to add to your scripture reference examples (which showcase things we can never again think represent God’s wishes for how we should live - and indeed never were) you could also add in resolving references which drive home this point, such as passages where Jesus (or Paul) encourages us to “judge for ourselves” - which even we, who are evil, are yet expected to be able to do.
Matthew 7:9-11
Luke 11:12
Acts 17:28
Not to mention the times that Paul expects the gentiles (and how much more the believers, then?) to also be able to discern from their own received traditions and testimonies and even nature itself to be able to judge rightly (as in the Acts passage already listed above). But also yet more in these.
Romans 2:15
Romans 14:22
1 Corinthians 11:13 (yeah - I know this is about hair, and many would judge this differently today than Paul and his culture did at that time, but the point here is, …Paul expected these fledgling believers to … Judge for themselves!
1 John 3:21
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, when it comes to condemning all humanity to death because of Adam’s sin; destroying children and animals who had not sinned in Noah’s flood, killing the infant firstborns in the plagues of Egypt, exterminating the Midianite men, married women, and children because of past inhospitality, among other atrocities, It seems to me that this is more than corrective punishment we see from parents. Both the savagery and tenderness appear to reflect man’s incomplete understanding of what happens to us as God’s judgment.
Those are all really great examples – ancient ones in fact. But the idea, originally, I think was that the OT God was a tad overdone in the Judgment Department — something that Marcion, and probably others before him, had thought — while Jesus was sweetness and lollipops. There is a mix of things in both the Old Testament revelations (or explanations of God’s actions) and in the words and ideas of the New. In the end, both testaments assert that there is a judgment coming. When it comes to condemning all humanity to death for Adam’s sin — that, like so many other biblical issues, comes freighted with all sorts of biological and theological themes. When my 91-year-old father ( in 2004) asked me why God had not done anything about Stalin, he was asking the very opposite of your (and others’) questions about all humanity being condemned for Adam’s sin. (Why did God do something about Adam?) The biblical tale — while loaded with lots of potential meanings and grist for plenty of mills (or book publishers) – could, as well as a tale of judgment, be a tale of mercy. Stalin died. And then a tale of not-so-much-mercy, for there is a judgment coming. For Stalin and for everyone on this board plus the guy next door. I had a coworker —in a former job – who paid no attention to what I was reading during off moments until the day he saw me reading a commentary on the Book of Romans. Then he started to pretend to barf. Happened every time he saw me with that commentary. There is something in us that wants nothing to do with God. Whether or not we are condemned particularly for what Adam himself did is not the point any longer. We have become Adam in our own selves. It may just be his legacy or ?? a tendency that got knitted into us. But it is hardly something we can turn off on our own. If we have that tendency, we may also be inclined to view God’s actions from “the prejudices of our perspective,” as I said elsewhere. After all, “everyone else does it.” At any rate, the two testaments tie together in their portrayal of God, at least ultimately. And that’s my two cents’ worth.
By the way: here is a thought that someone passed on to me: "Why do they say "that’s my two cents worth, when they say “a penny for your thoughts”? What do they do with that other penny? OK…happy Sunday
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An obvious attempt to low ball you out of your rightful compensation for your thoughts methinks.
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Only if “sweetness and lollipops” can include being refined in the refiner’s fire.
Judgment is and remains there to be sure. The difference is whether that judgment is founded on a vengeful god of wrath that has less control over his temper than the proverbial drunk uncle has, or instead is founded on Love that would see us free of our imprisoning sin - and letting judgment, and suffering be the necessary vehicles of our eventual deliverance and perfection.
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Ha!! The taxman cometh!!
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Your say so is incorrect. Testimony can indeed reveal objective facts, whether you can test them or not.
Can you test that the moon is spherical and a not a hemisphere? No, you cannot, but there are plenty of testimonies that you believe that say it is.
You have an inadequate understanding of the validity of testimony. You are a jury of one choosing to disbelieve for the wrong reasons.
We’re all a jury of one. You do believe in free will, right?
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Indeed. (Except that should be ‘juries’.)
I’ll compromise: we’re each a jury of one.
That is not a compromise. That is saying it correctly a different way.
Yes. I also believe that God is absolutely sovereign and a bright and shiny omnitemporal. It is a wonderful mystery that we cannot get our heads around. It is not so wonderful if you have not been adopted into his family.
Thanks to all who contributed to the original question (posed by me) for this particular post. I did get some helpful thoughts on the original subject, and enjoyed the slight tangents that always develop in a post. I do appreciate the conversations on BioLogos. It is always important to keep them “gracious” – which can be hard to do.
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