What Do You Mean When You Talk About Meaning (of Life, That is)?

Thanks for requesting to open this thread again, Kendel!

Well, I’ve understood meaning to be the thing that gives substance, or maybe weight, to being alive, and logic for acting upon anything. It, to me, is the foundation reason for existing—the value in it. That’s what I’ve understood up to this point, at least, though vocabulary for these subjects is always difficult.

It really does go hand-in-hand with purpose, I suppose. It’s more easily understood as the driving force to motivate living. Without it, life is pointless and we sense no real conviction of living or dying (and for some deeply despairing people, any conviction leans toward death).

I wouldn’t say value and purpose are synonymous, but they’re so deeply connected here that I wonder if one must be present for the other to be present as well. So when I try to understand meaning, there’s usually some teleological element that I feel is necessary. Anyone else feel similar?

I’ve also been wrestling with the subjectivity of meaning and trying to understand how individual, personally-defined meaning isn’t arbitrary. Maybe I’m so used to meaning being understood as externally-given and common to all mankind that it’s hard to grasp how subjective meaning can really be meaningful. Any thoughts?

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I did very much! Thank you, Mark.

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Cat Stevens song “18th Avenue” lyrics “meanings just drop to the ground” gives a feeling of no meaning. Your Spirit goes down.

Seamitchell, I just found this draft hanging out on my tablet. I got distracted and forgot to come back to it. Sorry.

I agree that vocabulary for topics like this is a challenge. I don’t have any formal background in philosophy and often find disussions that rely on a lot of technical terms confusing, boring, sometimes (not always) pompous. Most people have thought about these things in whatever terms are available to them and don’t need a license. Neither do you.

I tried to pull out some highlights from your post that I’d like to try to address. I hope other people do as well. I know I’m not the only one who thinks about this, and certainly not the most insightful thinker here.

I think the things you mentioned are normal, and so are the questions.
Purpose and value are terms that come up a lot in discussions of meaning. But they’re tricky. What if we considered them in relation to another person’s meaning. Must other people in our lives serve a purpose to us in order to have meaning? Do they only have meaning because of some value they bring to our relationship?
My mom, at 93, has slowed down a lot. She sees less and less meaning in her life because she sees herself as serving no real purpose any more. Is she right? I certainly don’t think so. But my view of her is not based on a purpose she fulfills or a particular value she brings. I love her, even though she can drive me crazy, because of bonds that were developed before I can remember. To my thinking those count. And while her purpose as a mother and value as a breadwinner have been fulfilled, she doesn’t have less meaning to me. Her meaning to me has changed during the course of our lives, but not deminished. Clearly, she and I have different concepts of “meaning of life.”

Meaning as I’m describing it here is entirely, unapologetically subjective. I am the only one who can ever have this particular understanding of her meaning. My sister’s experience with her is very different and so is the meaning of our mother to her. Experiences lived side by side in the same house for years but very different.

I don’t see such meaning as merely arbitrary, which I take to understand as random, one choice is no better than another. We may randomly encounter individuals in our lives, and those individuals may have all sorts of “meanings” to us, or none at all. A random encounter with a person can lead to a life long friendship. I’ve had many. The meaning and value of those relationships and the individuals in them is entirely subjective and built over time. It is not transferable to anyone else, either.
Interesting to consider the “purpose” of people in a friendship. Must they and the friendship have a purpose beyond the mutual enjoyment of this particular, peculiar, common relationship in order for any of it to have meaning? Generally, I think we see friendships that revolve around a specific purpose as a way to use another person, rather than to build a friendship.

I bring in relationships as an example of how we can try out our concepts related to “Meaning of life” on someone else, rather than getting entirely hung up on our own meaning. But I also bring up relationships because I think that they are essential to experiencing meaning for ourselves. In spite of being a classic introvert, I believe that webs of strong, good relationships are essential to our perception of meaning in our lives, whether I can clearly articulate precisely what I am trying to say with the term “meaning.”

I”m not really sure that the concept of “meaning” is anything any of us can ever pin down, because our sense of meaning or meaningfulness is entirely subjective.

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Kendel, what a marvelous essay you have put together. Thank you for that. It takes a great deal of time to pause and sort through the concepts you refer to: experiences (ours and others), friendships that relate to our lives, the attempt at defining “purpose”, enjoyment etc. And all of it gaining toward the goal of defining “meaning of life”. I also note how it integrates into the meaning as finally and succesfully defined by Viktor Frankl as “LOVE”. It is worthy of consideration that ideas such as those you have expressed mesh so well with his, while at the same time offering additional perspective. Thanks!!

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@Kendel I agree with Bucky’s comments here. I thought I might have some comments about Seamitchell’s post but there doesn’t seem to be the time. In between driving Lia to appointments and walks every waking moment is going into reading Elif Shank’s There Are Rivers In The Sky. (Two big thumbs up.)

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I’ve not read anything by or about Frankl. I just know his name.
Can you talk more about what he has said?

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Viktor Frankl (1905–1997) was an Austrian psychiatrist, neurologist, Holocaust survivor, and founder of logotherapy, a school of psychotherapy centered on the idea that the primary human motivation is not pleasure (as Sigmund Freud proposed) or power (as Alfred Adler emphasized), but the search for meaning.

Frankl’s ideas were forged under extraordinary circumstances. During World War II he was imprisoned in several Nazi concentration camps, including Auschwitz concentration camp and Dachau concentration camp. His parents, brother, and pregnant wife all died in the Holocaust. He survived.

Rather than asking only, “How can people be happy?” Frankl asked a deeper question:

How can people continue to live when life is filled with suffering?

His answer was that suffering does not automatically destroy meaning. While we cannot always control what happens to us, we retain a profound freedom to choose our response. One of his best-known observations is:

“Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances.”

That statement summarizes much of his philosophy.

The central ideas

Frankl’s thought revolves around several key principles:

  • Meaning is life’s primary motivation. People flourish when they discover purposes worth living for.
  • Meaning can be found in every circumstance, even tragic ones.
  • Freedom and responsibility belong together. We cannot choose every event, but we can choose our response.
  • Suffering is not good in itself, but when suffering is unavoidable it can be transformed into courage, love, or sacrifice.

Three ways to find meaning

Frankl suggested that people generally discover meaning through:

  1. Creating or accomplishing something

    • Work, art, service, discovery, building relationships.
  2. Experiencing something or loving someone

    • Beauty, nature, friendship, family, love.
  3. Choosing one’s attitude toward unavoidable suffering

    • When circumstances cannot be changed, character still can.

His most famous book

Man’s Search for Meaning is one of the most influential books of the twentieth century.

It has two parts:

  • a memoir describing Frankl’s experiences in concentration camps, and
  • a concise explanation of logotherapy.

The memoir is powerful because Frankl does not simply recount atrocities. He asks why some prisoners lost hope while others retained their humanity despite unimaginable suffering.

Why people still read Frankl

Frankl appeals to readers across religious and secular traditions because he neither ignores suffering nor romanticizes it. His work offers a framework for confronting grief, illness, failure, aging, and loss without pretending that these experiences are easy.

His influence extends beyond psychology into medicine, counseling, leadership, philosophy, theology, education, and resilience research.
For most readers, the best starting point is Man’s Search for Meaning. It is short (typically around 180 pages), highly readable, and combines autobiography with a compelling introduction to his psychology. It remains one of the clearest and most accessible explorations of how human beings can endure profound suffering without surrendering hope or dignity.

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Thanks for the background, Terry.
What do you think of Frankl’s view of meaning?

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The strength, IMO, is in his history as a holocaust survivor.

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What I’m about to say may or may not be controversial, but I’m absolutely convinced that the meaning of life is inextricably linked to the meaning we assign to death, and to what we believe death truly is and means.

At least, that’s how I see it. My only memory from early childhood is of being around two years old and discovering that death existed. After that, my next clear memories are from when I was eight or nine. Even now, that first memory remains deeply embedded in my mind.

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So what do you see as the connection?

In what ways does one’s view of death affect one’s understanding of meaning?

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One of the distinctive features of being a Holocaust survivor is having seen suffering and death up close.

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In unimaginable volume and variation.

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Well in my opinion the connection is absolute.

What I meant is that, if death is, as the materialists think, truly the absolute end of everything, of consciousness, individuality, memory, love, suffering, identity, and the person themselves, then I don’t see merely a difficulty in explaining the meaning of life, I see the complete collapse of the very idea that life could possess any meaning at all.

From a materialist perspective, every human life is ultimately reduced to a temporary arrangement of matter, which means that a person appears for a few decades, experiences a brief sequence of sensations, desires, fears, and attachments, and then disappears completely. Not metaphorically, but absolutely.

Nothing remains of the subject who lived, as there would beno reconciliation, no justice, and no enduring significance. The universe, according to this view, doesn’t preserve the difference between love and cruelty, courage and cowardice, sacrifice and exploitation, It simply absorbs everything into the same silence.

Jimmy Savile lived much of his life respected, celebrated, protected, and admired, while the full horror of what he had done emerged only after his death. Father Kolbe, by contrast, gave his own life so that another family might live.

Yet if death is total annihilation, their ultimate fate is absolutely identical: both lose everything; both cease to exist; neither knows how history judges him; neither receives justice, vindication, punishment, or peace.

Their moral difference survives only temporarily in the minds of other mortal beings who will also vanish.

Of course, society may remember one with disgust and the other with reverence, but that memory is itself temporary, as humanity will not exist forever: civilisations come and go, languages die, monuments decay, and eventually every human judgment will be erased. If materialism is true and death means total annihilation then even the distinction between saint and monster is ultimately swallowed by the same nothingness.

People often reply that we can create our own meaning, but I find that answer completely unsatisfying, as invented meaning is not the same as real meaning.

I mean…a prisoner may draw a window on the wall of his cell, but that doesn’t mean the wall has opened, right? Calling something meaningful because we desperately need it to be meaningful does not make it objectively so. It may comfort us, motivate us, or help us survive, but it remains a psychological construction produced by an organism that is moving towards extinction.

Under that view, love is only chemistry, morality is only social conditioning, consciousness is only a temporary neurological event, and the self is only a brief illusion generated by the brain: every ambition ends in oblivion, every relationship ends in separation, every memory disappears, every injustice eventually becomes irrelevant because there will be no one left to remember it. The universe remains indifferent, and nothing we do alters its final outcome.

I know many people do not share this conclusion, and I am fully aware that my position is extreme, but I have thought about it for decades, and I still cannot find a convincing alternative: If death means the total extinction of consciousness and individuality, then the idea of a meaning of life seems to me fairy-tale-like: a consoling narrative created by beings who cannot emotionally accept the implications of their own disappearance.

I have probably been unusually sensitive to this question from the beginning, as my earliest memory is of discovering, at around the age of two like I said, that death existed, and being horrified by it, not simply frightened, but existentially appalled by it (and, as a parenthetical reflection, I think this says something profound about the nature of the human person. A child of two can somehow be struck by the horror of non-existence and its implications while an adult gorilla, despite possessing greater developed intelligence than a toddler in many respects, does not appear to confront death in this consciously existential way. To me, that suggests that what I experienced was not merely a cerebral calculation, but something more immediate and profound, a movement of the soul reacting against the idea of one’s own annihilation, and suggests that the difference between human and animal intelligence is not merely quantitative but also qualitative).

I understand that this sensitivity may not be shared by everyone, and perhaps that is why others can live more comfortably with a materialist understanding of death, but to me, if death were truly the end of everything, then life would not be a meaningful story that happens to end, it would be a meaningless interruption between two eternities of nothingness

I don’t know that this experience is unique to you. I was very young as well when my mother pointed out that everyone dies. And like you, I was appalled. I think this is a normal reaction to this reality.

I don’t know that it’s extreme. It’s a common view, I think, among Christians.

As a Christian, though, I don’t think it at all describes the lives of most of the non-Christians and atheists I know. Their lives and their experiences of their lives are not as just meaningless chemical reactions.

I think that Christians who only see life as meaningful in light of eternal considerations are failing to value properly the relationship with God that they find ultimate. It’s a relationship that counts for us and doesn’t exist for others. They find fulfillment in the many other types of relationships that we also enjoy and derive meaning from.

Precisely. Which is exactly my view of what you’ve described.

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His book was powerful to me. My takeaway was different from that of Terry Sampson and Massimilliano.
To me, the story delivers a message that commands us to think about what is necessary to actually have such a spirit. Frankl clearly believes that the primary motivational force in man is his striving to find a meaning in his life. The ‘takeaway’ is to focus on the attributes and wisdom that Frankl had that allowed him to achieve such an outcome when so many others failed. All of us might wish that we could behave in such a manner, but only a few do. He clearly focuses on love as the “ultimate and highest goal to which man can aspire” (I wrote down a few of his quotes that were so powerful). And his fundamental belief revolved around the notion that everything could be taken from a man but one thing…the last of the human freedoms which is to choose one’s attitude in any circumstance, to choose one’s own way. To him it becomes as simple as each of us simply making an internal decision to that end. As he put it “he who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how”. I really liked the simplicity of his claim that the ‘meaning’ of life may change, but it never ceases to exist. And we can only discover it 3 ways: 1) creating a work or deed 2) experiencing something or someone (goodness, truth or beauty e.g.) or 3) the attitude we take toward suffering (he used his profound love to his advantage here). And suffering ceases the minute it finds meaning (such as realizing it is a sacrifice).

My surgical partner (in my practice) and I used to talk about our problems, etc, as partners for 30 years. We decided that there will always be a ‘top-10’ on our list, but the seriousness might change dramatically. Frankl decribes it as suffering which “fills the human soul and conscious mind, no matter whether it is great or little”. Imagine how proud we could all be if…“when in a position of utter desolation, when man cannot express himself in positive action, when his only achievement may consist in enduring his sufferings in the right way —an honorable way—in such a position man can, through loving contemplation of the image he carries of his beloved, achieve fulfillment”.

On that note I shall close, but with yet another quote from Dostoevski who wrote that “there is only one thing that I dread: not to be worthy of my sufferings”

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Well, there is an important difference between non-Christians and atheists. Non-Christians are not necessarily materialists, actually in most cases they aren’t, they believe in another religion, whereas atheists usually are. I say “usually” because some atheists do believe in the soul or in some form of transcendent existence; they simply don’t believe in God. Still, atheism and materialism overlap in most cases. So, for me, the crucial distinction here is materialism.

I don’t think so. I believe that even our other relationships take on immensely greater meaning if we do not see them as ultimately ending in eternal nothingness..

Sure, but personally, I’m simply unable to see how any real meaning can be found if death (true death, complete annihilation) is the final word.

I described my view as extreme because I know that many people believe life can still be meaningful even if Jimmy Savile and Father Kolbe ultimately face the same fate. I genuinely do not understand how they can see it that way, although I recognise that my own position is unusually radical. Had I not become a Catholic Christian, I would probably still be a nihilist. And I say “still” because I was once an atheist, and during that period I could not find any genuine meaning in life. Even my relationships were tainted by the painful idea that they would eventually end, completely and irreversibly.

I remember feeling this even with my first girlfriend, whom I loved very deeply. I would often think that, had we stayed together, one of us would eventually have had to watch the other grow old, deteriorate, and die (probably her watching me, since women tend to live longer) and that afterward we would never see each other again. Any children we might have had would eventually meet the same fate.

The same thought applied to my parents, my relatives, my friends, and everyone else.

Which, in my opinion, says a lot about human beings, because, as I said, at that age a child’s intelligence is certainly not greater than that of an adult gorilla. And yet, as far as we know, a gorilla cannot be existentially horrified in that way.

In any case, I was more than just horrified. My mother actually had to take me to the doctor, and he told me that scientists would discover the secret of eternal life, just to calm me down, because I would not stop crying and refused to eat. :joy::joy::joy:

It is literally the only memory I have from my early childhood. I hadn’t received any religious education yet at that time. After receiving it I became an atheist at around 11/12 before converting in 2014.

Iain McGilchrist points out in the first minute here that there are many online eager to argue that there is no meaning or purpose, that ‘science says’ those are just things we make up to make life bearable. But of course, as he goes on to say, science is in no position to make such claims and it is only people in the world of ‘popular science’ who say such silly things. In my experience it is very often atheists who seem to feel that science is what provides their lives with meaning. Even as they deny the existence of meaning they seem to feel this is an adequate rejoinder to those who claim their meaning comes from religion, stories or the arts.

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