What Do You Mean When You Talk About Meaning (of Life, That is)?

I spent most of my Forum time over the last few days reviewing this thread and taking notes on it, or replying to long neglected posts. Some of you have taken a good deal of time to read posts, put together thoughtful replies, read articles and watch videos people have shared. Thanks! That adds value to this discussion.

Below is a rough summary of the main points people made, although I’m sure I missed some. I wrote this for myself to help process what had been said. I’ll post it in case it’s of value to someone else, too.

I liked this quote from Kai:

It feels a bit annoying that I do not yet have satisfying answers, I can only ask questions. Makes me think if finding answers is one of the purposes of life…
–knor (kai)

A number of objective sources of life’s meaning were suggested, most of which included purpose given by God in creation, found in a relationship with God through Jesus Christ, and in being conformed to the likeness of Jesus.
However, life was also described as ultimately meaningless or purposeless, and finally as suffering.

On the other hand, many proposed a variety of subjective concepts related to meaning of life. Some sources are subjectively qualitative but nevertheless fairly specific concepts, such as relationships and productivity. Others were far more open ended. Depending on our personal predilections, we create our own meaning in what our attention is drawn to, what gives us a sense of place in the world, or in ways we are not always aware of.

Additionally, meaning or purpose was also suggested to be fluid or dependent, influenced by changing life circumstances, such as age, ability/disability, situation, etc.

It was noted that our views of the meaning of life can have a variety of implications. For example, if meaning is bound up in relationships, then we might have an ethical reponsibility to maintain and foster good relationships as well as seek to include a wider variety of people in our lives, particularly those who may find their own web of relationships torn. Other implications were not yet understood. For example, how can we understand our unique purpose, assuming we have one? How can we understand the purpose of the lives of people whose lives didn’t end up well, or whom life has treated ill? Some asked how we can understand meaning in relationship to people with various disabilities. It was also suggested that saying meaning of life is purely subjective is essentially saying there is no meaning. While seemingly good for putting an end to disagreement about sources of meaning, it ultimately unravels our social fabric. And finally, if we decide for ourselves what we mean by meaning, it requires a personal investment of deciding what it means and how best to describe it from within our experience.

The question, “What is the meaning of life?” was put to scrutiny. It was put forth that the meaning of meaing is irrelevant when we cannot stop loving; therefore the question is moot. There is too much pressure to insist on purpose and meaning in the first place. Talking about meaning in terms of large ultimates is pointless; we need to keep our focus more human-sized.

I don’t think we laid any new philosophical or theological groundwork, but it has been a good discussion so far.

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Leastwise ultimates which aren’t ultimately grounded in it or find expression at the human level probably are useless. But the opposite is also true, a life which never finds wonder in what we are, what we are given or in the question of why we or any of this is here can also miss out on meaning through aiming too low. Scale matters.

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I like that.
Thanks for reading and replying.

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Appreciate your summarizing thoughts. Well done. I’ll end with some quotes from Wittgenstein that sum up a lot of my thoughts. Appreciate the thread, and sorry for my crooked scans.

Edit
As if this weren’t already overkill, I forgot the last one:

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Those are some interesting quotes, @Jay313. I assume from his Philosophic Investigations? You know I actually bought a copy of that after some discussion with you about it long ago. Amazing that I only ever read his Tractatus as an undergrad philosophy major, even though my favorite grad student worshiped the guy and I really respected Paul Loeb who went on to be a professor of philosophy somewhere in the Pacific Northwest. I remember him also talking about Jesus in relation to some other philosopher’ approach to ethics - possibly Nietzche. I might yet get around to reading it once I polish off the last few thousand pages of McGilchrist’s opus grandiose.

I got focused on the next sentence on my last post. But I think this is important too. If it becomes a minimum requirement for (human or Christian) adequacy then no one can afford to consider it frankly, as with the taboo some feel about owning doubt. The question should be what has meaning in my life; it shouldn’t become do I have enough meaning in my life?

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“One must change one’s life. (Or the direction of one’s life.)”

Towards the “most important things” undoubtedly :sunglasses:

Not sure how relevant this is to the topic of the thread, but I found this wonderfully intriguing book and it’s a recent publication:

Debating Christian Religious Epistemology: An Introduction to Five Views on the Knowledge of God https://www.amazon.com/dp/B082NL1J4G?ref_=cm_sw_r_apann_dp_50HWQCVFRCT7434FBPCE

Jay, a great pragmatist philosopher once said:

I think it’s valuable to bring in fuel from other writers, who have thought deeply about the topic at hand. And there is plenty here. Thanks for being so selective in what you share, too. I need to do a better job of this myself. I’ve been a bit overwhelmed by rather dense reading the last few days and have had insufficient time to give to it.

Some things from Wittgenstein that stood out to me. There were more than these, but time…always time…:

‘to pray is to think about the meaning of life’; and that ‘to believe in God means to see that life has a meaning.’

I think this challenges my claim that I, as a Christian, see meaning in my life as not necessarily tied to belief in God. Or Wittgenstein might, if he were in this discussion, call me a cheater. “You have your theological safety net. You know you’re safe; so you can pretend to explore.”

However, I will not budge on life having meaning for everyone, at least as I understand “meaning” (of course).

‘seeing the world as a miracle’

I think this might be, in part, what @Marta was getting at way up in this thread.

Christianity is not a doctrine; I mean not a theory about what has happened an d will happen with the human soul, but a description of an actual occurrence in human life. For ‘consiousness of sin’ is an actual occurrence, and so are despair and salvation through faith. Those who speak of these things…are simply describing what has happened to them, whatever anyone may want to say about it.

My gut reaction is, “I like this. He describes what I think I see.”
After a particularly ugly “discussion” a while back, where I was told by a Christian that, “All doctrines are the work of man,” this is refreshing."

Part of the challenge of living by faith as a Christian is how word-bound we are forced to be. It’s the nature of the thing. And it can lead us to feel like all we’re doing is holding to a theoretical god and savior. On the worst days, it can feel like God is nothing more than text. But to recognize in the texts, what describes my own experience is a different thing altogether. “Whatever anyone may want to say about it.”

But if I am to be really saved – then I need certainty – not wisdom, dreams, speculation – and this certainty is faith. And faith is faith in what my heart, my soul needs, not my speculative intelligence. For it is my soul, with its passions, as it were with its flesh and blood that must be saved, not my abstract mind.

Interesting that Wittgenstein makes this distinction between heart/soul, and speculative intelligence/abstract mind, and the way faith meets the need of the heart/soul, rather than the intelligence/mind, even connecting flesh and blood passions with the soul needing saving.

I am curious what he believes is offered to the most cereberal of souls, though. We don’t all think and process the same. For some of us, faith is much easier than others, (I believe) simply in how we understand our world and process information.

A sound doctrine does not have to catch hold of one; one can follow it like a doctor’s prescription. – But here something must grasp one and turn one around. – (That is how I understand it.) Once turned around, one must stay turned around.

This is good. I need to write on my hand and make a poster to hang over all my work spaces.

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What about the book speaks to you in regard to this topic?
If it doesn’t exactly fit here, maybe you have some great quotes from it for Pithy Quotes.

It was a search result when looking up Norman Malcolm’s Wittgenstein: A Religious Point of View?

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If you find anything good in the book related to Meaning of Life questions, feel free to add it.

By the way, feel free to engage here with the quotes Jay shared. There’s a lot there to think about.

Are you intentionally ignoring me with my follow up question to your comment that we should be concerned with the most important things?

I am very confused. You seem to want to have a discussion by the questions you ask me and which I answer. But this one thing, you won’t respond to it. And yet you brought it up to begin with.

I can respect you acknowledging that you temporarily misspoke, but carrying on a conversation with me like this while ignoring the epitome of a meaningful question is like I said very confusing.

Sorry, Mike. I have a lot going on here and haven’t had the time or real energy to put my mind to your question. Or to find all the components of it. Please, consolidate the whole thing,all its parts as well as what is behind it.
Please, also understand (placing my cards face up) I have a strong aversion to questions that feel to me like a trap being laid. In some other thread with another participant, I was very clear that I would not answer the question as given for that very reason.
Be upfront about your reasoning and the connection to Meaning of Life, and I’ll consider it.

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You made a comment, which I can link, about how we should be concerned with the most important things.

And I am asking what are “the most important things.”

The truth is, now that I think about it, I don’t know what you meant, and I would like to know what you were thinking by that statement.

Could you find and quote what you want me to clarify? I’m not sure which post you have in mind.

Please explain what you meant here by the most important things

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I am very much enjoying reading through your response to the quotes Jay shared. I appreciate your transparency and lack of artifice. If someone really wanted to win over the heathen no strategy could be more effective. :wink:

I think praying must indicate an openness to wisdom beyond your own and a belief that such is possible. The thoughts we fill our minds with are like the plants we choose to make a garden, important, but no more so than the space we keep open. If you value insight and inspiration you don’t spend all your attention moving around m the furniture of your favorite thoughts and brainstorming; instead you focus on the context of what commands your attention and watch the space you keep open. If you have no faith or no patience you can chase your tail for a very long time to no avail. Of course receptivity doesn’t always pay off either but experience show reflection is valuable.

I think that means, like me, you don’t see meaning in life as a kind of Platonic ideal in relation to which every individual instance in a living being is but a poor approximation. There is more to life than ‘getting it right’. If you can’t feel the difference, it doesn’t make a difference how anyone else assesses your choices.

More here I want to get to but I’m being called to breakfast so I’ll post this much for now as it will keep the overall post length more manageable.

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Ok, Mike. Here it is. I hope this answers the questions you have. I pulled out my whole post, because the context of “shiny objects” matters.

I think the more important point I made is what I bolded. “We (Christians, maybe particularly evangelical, maybe specifically in the U.S.) fail to notice what looks mundane but which has been transformative.” Nobody’s excited by headlines like “Faithful, loving husband of 60 years nurses failing wife with dementia through the final stage of her life, thus demonstrating the love of Jesus to his grandchildren and neighbors who stopped over with supper.” Or “Incarcerated mother of 3 learns of the love of Jesus from donated former church library book brought by jail chaplain.” or … you get the idea.
But Some New Measure, now that gets our attention! Not just people at my church praying for everyone affected by the shooting at MSU. That’s boring, mundane. But a church service that goes overlong and as more people find out about it and the news coverage is greater, more people latch on! The latest book. The lastest “fix all your problems with this special prayer” and don’t forget to buy the videos and brochures to pass out to all your friends. “Trends” in what the Lord is doing today. The supernatural school my two cousins went to in order to get degrees in…Good Lord! I have no idea what kind of degree one can get there, but everything is super duper spiritual. And revivalistic. And shiny. Really, really, really shiny. Now THAT’S something! Lots of folks look and think out loud, “Now THAT’S a revival!”
One of the cousins, by the way, works very unsupernaturally as a care-giver in a group home for highly functioning mentally disabled people. I think her sister lives with her, because the magical haircare mlm she’s trying to support herself on isn’t panning out. She may have to get a job herself.
But they experienced revival.

Yeah. I know I sound cynical.
I often am.

To steal a title from Eugene Peterson (who stole it from Nietzsche), no one gets excited about watching a long obedience in the same direction. The slog, the day to day obedience, always seeking the same end, the barely perceptible alterations that conform us more to the image of our Savior is glacially slow and at best incomplete. It may involve tears of grief or joy, but those are usually in private. It may involve enormous praise to God that no one else ever hears. Giving of oneself, because it pleases Jesus, rather than oneself is a struggle few of us share with anyone else. But that’s where real revival resides, or completes itself.

What has happened recently at Asbury cannot be understood as a revival, until we see what fruits it brings. If everybody goes home feeling awesome, having enjoyed the buzz of the spirit, it wasn’t a revival. If we see evidence of many, many, long-term (I mean very long) changes in the directions of people’s lives that now show a new (not renewed but brand spanking new) and lasting commitment to obey the commands of Christ, particularly the socially unpopular ones that make church people uncomfortable, then we can start to talk about the validity or nonvalidity of revival. That won’t be for at least a decade, but preferably 2 or 3.

In our former church, where I was the librarian for 10 years and on library staff for at least 10 more, I finally got around to developing a policy for handling donations, so we didn’t get slammed with books from basement cleanout projects. Before that, I used this site a lot to research authors. It’s a great place to research all kinds of Christian nonsense.

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