True. Mediterranean religion at that point knew of gods and of demigods, but the concept that a god would become human would have been beyond puzzling; to some it would have seemed ludicrous, but to others it could well have seemed offensive. At the very least it was an idea totally alien to the Mediterranean religious scene, and alien ideas were often seen as disruptive.
Arius, along with every other advocate of heresy for centuries, was trying to stuff Christianity – or more specifically, Jesus – into a Hellenistic box. It was a poor fit.
Greg Stafford did very well in a debate with James White. I was impressed by him years ago when I heard it. After listening to parts of it now, I can better appreciate how fine is the line Hesier drew.
Stafford’s cross examination begins at 1:56:15 and his closing argument is at 2:27:25
Justin Martyr told Trypho that even if he could not prove Jesus preexisted, the evidence of him being the Messiah would still stand. He added:
“For there are some, my friends, of our race, who admit that He is Christ, while holding Him to be man of men; with whom I do not agree, nor would I, even though most of those who have [now] the same opinions as myself should say so”.
So he says that some of his Christian friends (our race = Christianity) are dynamic monarchianists. Although he himself believes in Jesus’ preexistence. (Scholars disagree whether he was arian, binitarian or trinitarian.) So he regarded unitarians as both Christians and as his friends.
In chapter 82 he writes about false prophets:
“For many have taught godless, blasphemous, and unholy doctrines, forging them in His name; have taught, too, and even yet are teaching, those things which proceed from the unclean spirit of the devil, and which were put into their hearts.”
So he disagrees with unitarians. But apparently he doesn’t view them as false prophets and holding to unholy doctrines. Otherwise he wouldn’t call them his friends.
This shows that in the second century there was much more room for Christological disagreement than in later periods.
The grammar in John 1:1 isn’t as simple as how the noun works. Reading it literally it says “and God is that the Word was being”. The use of the verb of being makes this passage about the nature of being, and that is critical. That said, while Theos is a noun it takes on the import of a descriptor, but the content of that descriptor is that the nature of the Word is the very same nature of the Theos.
I didn’t catch the names (I presume White is the guy on the right)but White is slippery and also badly informed with his argument from John as a first century monotheistic view – not that Stafford is much better; his quibbling about “above every other name” is sophomoric. He argues like an inventory clerk. White is right about context, something that cultists prefer to ignore.
“Lord of glory” is a potent phrase,
Stafford makes me think of first-year members of a debate team, grabbing whatever looks like it will stick and throwing it. I’m not impressed by his discussion of “dia”, especially since in Romans 11:36 Paul is clearly talking about Jesus and says that “all things” are “from Him”. Stafford’s argument fails with that verse.
I looked up where Stafford is today. He left the JW over the prohibition on blood transfusions. Which I give him credit for. But he is currently in this ugly grudge match with Sam Shamoun.
But isn’t “nature” one of those Hellenistic ways of thinking? For example, Moses is also called God in Exodus 7:1.
Then the [Yahweh] said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.
The “like” is not in the Hebrew btw. So within Jewish ways of thinking God shares his identity with certain very special persons.
What are the arguments for the antecedent being Jesus?
My parents are arian, I myself am a dynamic monarchianist. (Sometimes called Biblical unitarians. That term is used to show the difference with universal unitarians. But I don’t like it that much because it sounds like our position is the correct Biblical one. Which I think it is haha, just as everyone else does. But I don’t like giving the impression of “I am right and you are wrong”.)
I don’t like these traditional discussion formats. I have both trinitarian and arian friends, and a friendly conversation is always prefered by me. In the end, we all want to serve God and Christ.
Now that I think about it, one of my core fundamental beliefs is that reasonable people can disagree about the inerrancy and authority of the Bible. I still believe in the Bible, barely and yet fundamentally, it can be very ironic.
When there is severe persecution, people wanting to follow Jesus are drawn together, despite doctrinal differences. That can be seen today and was probably true during the first centuries.
During the first two centuries, churches had the Hebrew bible and some circulating writings, gospels and letters of Paul being the most important. My impression about what I have read was that the prevalent thinking was ‘proto-catholic’ in the sense that local congregations declaring good news about Jesus and accepting ‘the teachings of all apostles’ were all included within the Christian unity of churches (considered ‘catholic’ churches). There were still no general and detailed confessions and the set of writings considered authoritative varied somewhat locally, so there were differing interpretations among the believers. During the early period of Apostolic fathers, defending the fact that Christians believe in one God was a priority, fight against gnostic-type philosophies perhaps the second priority. Debate about keeping the laws mentioned in the Hebrew bible appeared to be a locally important question. Other doctrinal issues got less attention.
Those knowing the scriptures were supporting their interpretations with the scriptures, less learned non-Jew leaders tried to avoid divisions by stressing the need to follow the leader - if everybody would follow the leader of the local church, there would be no divisions; Ignatius is an example of the latter approach. When membership was based on following the leader, doctrinal side did not become critical, unless the ‘heretical’ teaching threatened to divide the local church or did draw some part of members away from the local church.
These points were among the reasons why the tolerance to interpretations that did not threaten to divide local churches was wider than what it is today.
Speaking about that, one of my friends once asked me how I think about the whole works / faith debate. I sent her Peter’s speech in Acts 2 and said that his remarks are all I need haha.
So what I am trying to say is that the speeches in Acts often get forgotten when talking about the basic fundamentals. Yet these speeches were considered the basics. And after hearing these, converts would decide to be baptised.
For those interested:
Acts 2
14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd:
“Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 “ ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. 19 I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. 21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’
22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25 David said about him:
“ ‘I saw the Lord always before me. Because he [God] is at my right hand, I will not be shaken. 26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest in hope, 27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay. 28 You have made known to me the paths of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence.’
29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
“ ‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” ’
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”
Acts 3
11 While the man held on to Peter and John, all the people were astonished and came running to them in the place called Solomon’s Colonnade. 12 When Peter saw this, he said to them:
“Fellow Israelites, why does this surprise you? Why do you stare at us as if by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? 13 The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. 14 You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. 15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. 16 By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through him that has completely healed him, as you can all see.
17 “Now, fellow Israelites, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18 But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer. 19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22 For Moses said,
‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’
24 “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days. 25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’ 26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”
Acts 4
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them:
“Rulers and elders of the people! 9 If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a man who was lame and are being asked how he was healed, 10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 Jesus is “ ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’ 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
…
23 On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God.
“Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25 You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:
“ ‘Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? 26 The kings of the earth rise up and the rulers band together against the Lord and against his anointed one.’
27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. 29 Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”
Acts 5
29 Peter and the other apostles replied:
“We must obey God rather than human beings! 30 The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross. 31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins. 32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”
Acts 7
“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52 Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— 53 you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it.”
54 When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
Acts 10
34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
39 “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
Acts 13
16 Standing up, Paul motioned with his hand and said:
“Fellow Israelites and you Gentiles who worship God, listen to me! 17The God of the people of Israel chose our ancestors; he made the people prosper during their stay in Egypt; with mighty power he led them out of that country; 18 for about forty years he endured their conduct a in the wilderness; 19 and he overthrew seven nations in Canaan, giving their land to his people as their inheritance. 20 All this took about 450 years.
“After this, God gave them judges until the time of Samuel the prophet. 21 Then the people asked for a king, and he gave them Saul son of Kish, of the tribe of Benjamin, who ruled forty years. 22 After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: ‘I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.’
23 “From this man’s descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised. 24 Before the coming of Jesus, John preached repentance and baptism to all the people of Israel. 25 As John was completing his work, he said: ‘Who do you suppose I am? I am not the one you are looking for. But there is one coming after me whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.’
26 “Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent. 27 The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. 28 Though they found no proper ground for a death sentence, they asked Pilate to have him executed. 29 When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and laid him in a tomb. 30 But God raised him from the dead, 31 and for many days he was seen by those who had traveled with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. They are now his witnesses to our people.
32 “We tell you the good news: What God promised our ancestors 33 he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: “ ‘You are my son; today I have become your father.’ 34 God raised him from the dead so that he will never be subject to decay. As God has said, “ ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.’ 35 So it is also stated elsewhere: “ ‘You [God] will not let your holy one [Jesus] see decay.’
36 “Now when David had served God’s purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his ancestors and his body decayed. 37 But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.
38 “Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses. 40 Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:
41 “ ‘Look, you scoffers, wonder and perish, for I am going to do something in your days that you would never believe, even if someone told you.’ ”
Acts 13
22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said:
“People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.
24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’
29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”
Yeah, the Johannine epistles attack an early form of gnosticism which denies Jesus coming in the flesh. And Acts and the Pauline letters are full with controversies with the Jews who insisted that gentile converts should keep the law of Moses. Regarding monotheism, there is the discussion about food sacrificed to idols.
I would also argue pagan contra Jewish / Christian morality was a big issue. If you look at both the Pauline and Catholic letters, and the book of Revelation, it is clear that many “Christians” didn’t take Christian morality as serious as they should be. Jesus used strong language when addressing the seven congregations in Rev 2-3.
this is a good point…lets also remember that ironically Romans early on called Christians, atheists…so much for modern people thinking Christians came up with the term to describe an individual who doesnt believe in God. We have rehashed an ancient Roman term and redefined it
This issue is related to both the question of keeping the law (Torah) and the fight against Greek/eastern ideologies.
Should Christians keep the moral laws mentioned in the Torah or can we ignore them?
How concerned should we be about what happens to the body (‘flesh’) - gnostic/Platonic ideology thought that we had a pure soul in a corrupt body. If only the soul is pure and eternal, it does not matter as much what you do with the corrupt body. Visiting the temple prostitutes or participating in feasts and other events where people were eating meat sacrificed to idols seemed to be an occasional(?) habit in at least some places, such as Corinth.
More generally, when Christians are a minority there is a need to think how we should react to the customs of the local culture. What is just cultural habits (ok for you), what is against the will of God (not ok for you)?
Early Christians had to do it and some parts of the world have entered a post-Christian era where we have to think and decide the same questions and reactions again as a minority within a predominantly non-Christian culture.
I have been amazed about the rapid cultural change that seems to be happening among the younger generations. There seems to be marked differences between the age classes 20-30 and 12-17 years.
Especially educated young women have adopted a very liberal culture that is far from the teachings of conservative Christianity and they do not teach Christian stories or values to their children. They have a negative attitude towards someone telling about Jesus to non-Christians.
In contrast, the youngest generation (<18 years) is surprisingly open to the gospel. They think that everybody should have full rights to tell about their beliefs and are interested to listen and ask. When they hear the gospel, many accept it and want to follow Jesus. They do not know much of Christianity and bring their liberal cultural ideas with them to the church. It demands time, wisdom and love to teach and lead these children of post-Christian culture towards the more biblical culture within the church. At the same time, we need to rethink our cultural ideas and customs - what is just cultural habits and can be modified or abandoned, what is according to the will of God and should be kept even when the culture changes?
I think there is some analogy to what was the situation in the early churches.
it should be noted that all Christians recognise that at the end of time there will be a judgement.
In order for there to be a judgement, there has to be a standard by which those being judged are assessed.
The only standard that Christians have in the bible is the moral law (10 commandments)
When Christ said there is a new commandment "love God and your neighbour as yourself" he was actually referring to the two categories of the 10 commandments. These are: 1-4 = Loving God 5-10 = Loving your neighbour
(check the commandments for yourself…you will plainly see what i am saying is right)
The difference between the two covenan ts is the following:
The Old Covenant = Israelites said “all these things we will do” (they committed to laws written on tablets of stone)
The New Covenant = God said “I will write my laws on your hearts and in your minds” (they are no longer on tablets of stone)
It should also be noted…the ark of the covenant containing the law on tablets of stone dissapeared in about 600 B.C arpound the timed the Babylonians took the Israelites captive…so the law was lost 6 centuries before Christ.
Also, the prophet Jeremiah first raised the New Covenant approx 600 years before Christ in Jeremiah 31:33
The New Testament perspective on the law is a little different from what most Christians think. The bible tells us that "we cannot save ourselves"…
The bible does not say "do not keep the law"!
In terms of the new covenant…the claim that its different is a furphy…the apostle tells us even Abraham was saved by faith. Given Abraham lived about1700 years before Christ, how could he have been saved by faith if he was under the old covenant?
James 2: 20 O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?h21Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did. 23And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”i and he was called a friend of God.j24As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.
Romans 4: 18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.”e19Without weakening in his faith, 23Now the words “it was credited to him” were written not only for Abraham, 24but also for us, to whom righteousness will be credited—for us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.
Let us forget our cultural context for some time. Think about the followers of Yeshua coming from a Jewish culture and entering the Greek world with the new gospel about Yeshua. Very different beliefs, very different cultures. What should we keep, what can change in the very different cultural context of gentiles?
The answers and teachings of apostle Paul were very radical and angered many. There was a strong counterreaction: they have to be circumcised and ordered to keep the law. It took many debates and time before the ‘conservatives’ could accept that gentiles did not have to keep the law in Torah, except some points where the cultural conflict was too strong to allow harmony between Jewish and gentile believers if the gentile believers did not keep these points (Acts 15).
That was a great cultural shift. We are not faced with such a major cultural shift but we should realize that much of how we manifest our faith is just cultural customs - a Christian culture but still merely cultural ideas and customs. When we are faced with new cultures, we stumble to the question of accommodation - how much are we allowed to accommodate the message to the new culture?
Unless we actively avoid traps in our cultural thinking, we are lifting our cultural ideas to the level of God’s word. That would mean that we want God to follow our thinking, rather than openly asking what is the will of God in the new situation and act accordingly. Accommodation is not the same as abandoning the biblical scriptures, it is telling the message in the scriptures in a form that can be received by people living in the new culture. If God does not demand something, why would we put a barrier to the road of people by demanding them to keep the ideas and habits of our culture?
I am not following where you are going with this. You quote Paul as a reference for cultural differences…paul was half jewish and half Roman and he agreed that Abraham was saved by faith. Abraham predates Christ by 1700 years. This proves no one has ever been saved differently than by faith! (so i dont follow your point).
As i have said before…it was the pharasees that made the law a burden…not God. Culture has nothing to do with keeping the commandments…its Gods law of love…thats timeless because God is unchanging/timeless.
God does demand we keep the law…
Rev 14:12 the patience of the saints are those who:
Keep the commandments
Have the testimony of Jesus (gospel)
Its just that its foolish to think we can save ourselves by keeping the law…thats never been how anyone is saved…not even Adam. We only have to break a single command and we are condemed to death and therefore need atonement. Paul says in Romans 6 “for the wages of sin is death but the gift of God through Christ our Lord is eternal life”…thats the whole point of the gospel, Christ made the atonement in our place. Thats what justification means. This has nothing to do with throwing out the law…it hasnt been abolished.
