Whales did (NOT) evolve

@Ashwin_s ( @pevaquark, @T.j_Runyon, @T_aquaticus, @Mervin_Bitikofer, @jpm ):

It seems that you are among the last to find out: there are Christians with a science vocation who
simultaneously:

  1. believe Evolution is teleological, but
  2. do not believe the teleological nature of Evolution can be proved, nor that it can even be detected, by scientific method.

How is this true?: there are many ways for God to have shaped life on Earth, and each one is virtually impossible to test - Let’s use the dino-killing asteroid as a natural event, believed to have been at the hand of God:

A) By arranging to wipe out the dinosaurs and their ilk, God made it possible for a broad range of large mammals to evolve from the very small mammals that had evaded extinction by being too small for dinosaurs to effectively hunt them into oblivion. But there are no tests for God’s intentions!

B) For many Christians, their religious premises tell them that the mere fact the asteroid hit the Earth is enough for them to know God planned for that. Christian Scientists affirm the intelligence of the events and the resulting effect by religious interpretation, not by scientific interpretation.

C) Scientists are not in a position where they can test:
i] whether the asteroid collision was something in arranged for by purely natural lawful means (the asteroid was created by the collision of other natural bodies somewhere beyond Earth’s orbit around the Sun);

    • versus - -

ii] God “poofed” the asteroid into existence and aimed it at just the right trajectory to collide with Earth at exactly the desired angle.

Many Creationists are surprised to learn that what separate BioLogos from Creationist group is not the verdict on divine design, nor the verdict on teleology - - but the verdict on whether Science can find or detect the actions of God and/or whether it is beneficial, or too societally risky, to teach religious aspects of Creation in the public schools.

But here’s the most important thing:

You write: "I feel this is highly deceptive. There is a generally understood meaning of the term evolution.
Evolution is commonly understood as a non-teleological process."

This is the very thing BioLogos seeks to change – to show that Christians can embrace the scientific side of Evolution without it affecting their Christian faith, and also without affecting how the science of Evolution is conducted. What looks random to the human mind is, by our religious calculus, is not random to God.

As a fan of American pragmatism and American constitutionalism, I can imagine the first post-American Revolution politicians were criticized when they referred to America as a “democracy”! I can imagine some “old school” political essayist insisting that “democracy” has only meant “rule by the mob” and so their terminology is wrong.

But what the post-revolutionary politicians were doing was encouraging an additional meaning to the term “democracy” - - which captured the essence of the American political model:

  • a system with no king or even a house of Lords (with land titles conferred by land ownership).
  • a system where factions were able to freely compete for support from the electorate;
  • a system where the above points were valid and true, despite slaves, women and most men with insufficient property to qualify for voting.

The politicians could have attempted to invent a completely different word - - but found it easier, and more compelling to the voters, to add to the dictionary meaning of Democracy, rather than to add to the confusion by inventing a brand new term.

The parallels to the use of Evolution are quite close:

the term Evolution, as used by its earliest promoters, required randomness and God’s lack of engagement with natural laws that control evolution and/or God’s existence not even acknowledged.

But as the evidence for “Common Descent with Modification” started to accumulate, and the use of the phrase “Survival of the Fittest” began to be replaced by “Natural Selection”, Christians who found the natural evidence more convincing than the denials by Creationists - - the need for a new [possible] understanding for Creation became increasingly evident. Thus, if Speciation could occur by God arranging for sufficient levels of mutation, which could lead eventually to changes in reproductive compatibility, the word Evolution was still applicable, since Creationists rejected the possibility for such things.

It was reasoned that -
Since God could use at various times both miracles (i.e., special creation) OR natural laws to make rain or to make a new species; and
Since God appears to have gone out of His way to leave evidence for “common descent” and “speciation” by natural processes; then:

a new category of Evolution must be defined where Evolution is in the hands of God, rather than in the hands of nobody.

@Ashwin_s, I hope this helps you understand the underpinnings for why there is a new (additional) definition for Evolution.

ADDENDUM - -
You wrote:

I think you attempting to define those who believe God employs naturally produced Speciation and Common Descent as Creationism is another kind of double-talk. If Special Creation is making Adam in a “poof” event . . . then clearly making a human over millions of years can’t be Creationism. The process is easy to define: it is evolution. The part that you call Teleological is not available to science for further analysis or even detection.

So . . . by all objective measures, Evolution is still Evolution.

I have little more to add as I am pretty much the same boat as the other responders. I think intelligent design is good philosophy, though it tends to infer a small God who has to fine-tune and fix things, whereas my concept of God is more of an artist applying brush strokes on the canvas or chiseling the Pieta from a block of stone. The ID movement however seems to have overreached in applying it to the scientific process without basis to do so.

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Hi Ashwin,

I am not a biologist, but if I have understood biology correctly, then your assertion is dead wrong. Speciation is not quantized; the only thing that can be quantized is the number of mutations (of various sorts) across space–e.g., between individuals in a population–and across time.

This is exactly the situation with linguistics, where individuals and populations innovate in their idioms, verb declensions, etc., both across space and across time. I discovered the spatial dimension when my family moved from Ohio to South Carolina a long, long time ago. Everyone in South Carolina spoke English, but it wasn’t quite the same English that my Ohio neighbors spoke.

Moreover, there is a kind of speciation event in language evolution; it occurs when the speakers of the descendant language and the speakers of the original language can no longer understand one another without translation. This is why I had to wrestle so hard with the Canterbury Tales in high school lit; it was written in the contemporary language of the English isle, but that language was not the English I knew.

This is why language is a very good (though imperfect) analogy for biological evolution.

Blessings,
Chris

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I think it’s pretty much God-of-the-gaps theology, where God serves as a placeholder for scientific ignorance. And God therefore shrinks with each discovery of some missing piece of evidence.

Denis Venema has some very good posts here on this very thing.

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Hi James,

Glad we are in agreement with respect to the main points. As to what ID means, we should allow the proponents to define it as opposed to how it is perceived by evolutionary biologists/popular media.If we ask regular people what evolution means, we would get a range of disparate and inaccurate definitions depending on whom we ask. Of course, none of the definitions would really be valid to the science of evolution. Similar, let ID scientists define what ID means.
Let me post one such definition below :slight_smile:

Blockquote
Intelligent design refers to a scientific research program as well as a community of scientists, philosophers and other scholars who seek evidence of design in nature. The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection. Through the study and analysis of a system’s components, a design theorist is able to determine whether various natural structures are the product of chance, natural law, intelligent design, or some combination thereof. Such research is conducted by observing the types of information produced when intelligent agents act. Scientists then seek to find objects which have those same types of informational properties which we commonly know come from intelligence.
Blockquote
So the key claim that needs to be verified is the one below :
Through the study and analysis of a system’s components, a design theorist is able to determine whether various natural structures are the product of chance, natural law, intelligent design, or some combination thereof.

I think it s possible to show whether design is more probable vis a vis evolution (where evolution is the null hypothesis).

This is something an athiest would say (I am referring to the argument against ID obviously). No one really knows how matter came to be (even a proper definition of matter is ultimately contestable). yet we do science about how matter interacts within the universe all the time.
Newton defined how gravity behaves long ago…Scientists are still working on understanding what exactly it is and how it behaves.
In the nascent stage of a field in science, its common to start with the low hanging fruit, i.e immediately testable/observable effects (like an apple falling down instead of going up). The effects of intelligence and what its creations look like can be immediately observed, and tested.As our knowledge increases, we figure out how to test more difficult and basic ideas out… its possible we hit a wall at some point.
Its common for scientists to talk about what they can test here and now… and right now, its detection of intelligent design.
This is nothing to be scornful about.

You are right proven is the wrong word to use. in historical sciences, we cant really prove what happened, we can at best describe what probably happened and sow all other alternatives are highly unlikely.
Id scientists believe , Design can be detected. As an engineer, i agree with them. Designed products have unique properties which a product of nature does not have. (In all cases where we actually know the causative agent through observation).
Some of the things ID scientists are doing which i find interesting are:

  1. Information science - Laws of conservation of information applied to evolutionary searches, Detecting specified complexity in structures (there is an interesting application of this with respect to snow flakes). Information science is well suited to find the probability of meaning/purpose emerging through chance.
    You can find more here -The Evolutionary Informatics Lab - Publications
    And a long but clear description of the arument from conservation of information by william dembski.
    Conservation of Information Made Simple | Evolution News
  2. Detecting irreducible complexity in biological systems.

Another field i would like to see some work on is to describe how inputting energy into an open system can lead to increase in order to the level of working machines through stochastic processes. (Or in other words- Mercury gets way more heat than earth… why didnt it develop complex biological systems?).

I am attaching an interesting description of the problem below:
http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2013.2/BIO-C.2013.2
@gbrooks9 - I think the above reply to Bill covers the objections raised by you.
@pevaquark: Would love to know what you think about the article on the second law of themodynamics.

This is the kind of doublespeak i am talking about.
Scientists need to find ways to test for design… because its very much possible. Its as easy to test for design as it is to test for common descent…

How did science decide that it cannot detect teleology??? any papers on the subject??
This is not just double talk…its double talk based on a lie…A science of the gaps if you will…

Actually its a probability based inference in accordance with known facts… just like evolution is.
The only question is… which is more probable…

When two organisms cannot interbreed and produce viable off spring, they are said to belong to a different species. That’s a very clear differentiator.
It would need significant changes in embryo development, morphology,etc…
The mutations that achieve this change will be markers for speciation.
I don’t know if anyone has worked in this direction.
Language doesn’t have anything equivalent. There are no specific groups of words which will act as a clear differentiator showing when a dialect becomes a different langauge.

Thanks Ashwin. I’d personally argue that it’s better to acknowledge that different people use the terms “intelligent design” and “evolution” in different ways. Otherwise you’re going to get confused.

It’s like the word “hacker.” People who identify themselves using the word insist that it means something innocent, harmless, and possibly even beneficial. But if you described yourself as a “hacker” at the security gates at an airport, you’d be asking for trouble.

The fact is, words and phrases are defined according to the way that they are used, not the other way round.

If its a scientific debate…
Go with how scientists define the terms…
And Biologos is supposed to be about science/faith dialogue…
then use scientific words with the scientific definition…
and faith related words with religious definitions…
Of course, if Biologos is about apologetics for Evolution to Christians… Then… ya…
the current approach works… because its basically deceptive…
this is of course only my opinion.

I am waiting for this. I have not seen anything really come of it yet.

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So where are the results of this “easy” test? The ID movement has been around for a good while now.

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This is the second time I’ve seen you appeal
to the biological species concept like it isn’t severely flawed and doubted…

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Well yes, if and only if you are talking to scientists as a scientist yourself. This is because scientists have been trained in rigorous and precise thinking and understand the need for exact terminology. Even then you need to be careful because different disciplines often use similar sounding terminology in different ways. The word “class” means something completely different in biology from what it means in computer programming, for example.

On the other hand, non-scientisis don’t have that training and experience and will have all sorts of weird misconceptions and fuzzy thinking about what you mean.

It’s deceptive to use the two different meanings of the same word in the same context, yes. That’s called “equivocation.” But there’s nothing deceptive about pointing out that terminology can be ambiguous and providing clarification about exactly what you mean.

@Ashwin_s,

I look forward to an example of such a demonstration. After all this time, I don’t believe one has survived scrutiny.

@Ashwin_s,

This statement of yours reveals your lack of comprehension of what is involved:

  1. The BioLogos mission statements are religiously based descriptions of science, not scientifically based descriptions of spiritual realities.

  2. By definition, if BioLogos takes the position that science cannot detect the activities of God, then the statement that God directs the course of Evolution MUST BE a religious statement.

@Ashwin_s,

Let’s presume your description of BioLogos mission statements is not intentionally insulting.

Would you mind explaining to the readers of your postings the logic you use to arrive at this opinion of yours?

If the heart of the BioLogos position is that it is impossible for Evolution to be truly random if God is in control of it - - how exactly is it deception to define the terms accordingly?

If you criticize Evolution when it is presented as a random operation of nature, doesn’t that mean you, yourself, hold to the view that Evolution-as-Conventionally-Defined cannot possibly exist?

So, in fact, BioLogos is offering the only valid definition for definition that fits with your own criticisms of Evolution as scientists have defined Evolution!

From a scientific perspective, there is no evidence for evolution being a goal oriented process. The same would apply to all of nature, so evolution is in the same boat with weather, thermodynamics, and quantum mechanics. Obviously, there are very different theological perspectives that go beyond what science can evidence or test for.

Science has already engaged the question of teleology within the confines of methodological naturalism, and the scientific evidence didn’t support teleology. This, again, comes back to the false dichotomy of Atheistic Meteorology or Divine Rain. Weather patterns don’t show any scientific evidence of being guided towards a specific goal, but people still believe that weather is a part of God’s will.

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I have yet to see anyone actually demonstrate this to be true.

It has already been shown that evolution can produce new information.

“How do genetic systems gain information by evolutionary processes? Answering this question precisely requires a robust, quantitative measure of information. Fortunately, 50 years ago Claude Shannon defined information as a decrease in the uncertainty of a receiver. For molecular systems, uncertainty is closely related to entropy and hence has clear connections to the Second Law of Thermodynamics. These aspects of information theory have allowed the development of a straightforward and practical method of measuring information in genetic control systems. Here this method is used to observe information gain in the binding sites for an artificial ‘protein’ in a computer simulation of evolution. The simulation begins with zero information and, as in naturally occurring genetic systems, the information measured in the fully evolved binding sites is close to that needed to locate the sites in the genome. The transition is rapid, demonstrating that information gain can occur by punctuated equilibrium.”
Schneider (2000)

The hard part is demonstrating that IC systems can not evolve. We already know that they can, such as the step-by-step evolution of the irreducibly complex mammalian middle ear that is seen in the fossil record.

The easy test is numerous and obvious violations of a nested hierarchy. Another test is the pattern of mutations. If mutations did not come about through natural processes then they should deviate from the expected pattern of transitions outnumbering transversions and a low rate of CpG mutations compared to what we would expect from natural mutations. Another test could be the ratio of synonymous to non-synonymous mutations, and the divergence of introns and exons. There are tons of possible tests, but ID/creationist proponents don’t talk about them because the evidence from these tests support evolution.

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@T_aquaticus

Unless… and we need to keep reminding ourselves of the possibility… God doesn’t POOF mutations into existence… but arranges normal natural operations to trigger the mutations he specifically requires!

Then we would need a test to measure God’s INTENTIONS… rather than the results.

In such a case it is entirely possible that these mutations would be statistically indistinguishable from random mutations (with respect to fitness) which is the conclusion that science would come to.

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Exactly! Which is why BioLogos rejects the ability of Science to detect God or the divine intentions of his operations! I.D. still hasn’t come to terms with this.