Whales did (NOT) evolve

@Ashwin_s (@T.j_Runyon, @T_aquaticus, @pevaquark, @jpm and all those other volunteers who are interested in the exact wording of what BioLoogos officially rejects ) :

You write: " A designed process is ultimately not random. The end results are anticipated/predicted.
Evolution cannot be conflated with Design."

It doesn’t matter what rules you have made up in your head.

The BioLogos folks have qualified their definition and use of Evolution (see image below):

So, it would seem long before you could reject the BioLogos definition on Evolution, BioLogos.Org had already officially rejected YOUR view!:

“[BioLogos.Org] believe[s] that … God continues to sustain the … functioning of the natural world, and the cosmos… Therefore [BioLogos.org] reject[s] ideologies … that God is no longer active in the natural world.”

Further: “[BioLogos.org believes] that the diversity and interrelation of all life on earth [including your Sugar Glider and Flying Squirrel] are best explained by the God-ordained process of evolution with common descent. Thus evolution is not in opposition to God, but a means by which God providentially achieves his purposes.”

And lastly, but most crucially, for the purpose of discussion in this thread:

“…Therefore, we reject ideologies that claim that evolution is a purposeless
process …” [and that claim] “… evolution replaces God.”

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[ severe line of text removed by moderator; ruling accepted and endorsed by GBrooks9 ]

Finally seems to be the key word. We have such a finite experience on earth that we think a couple of hundred years is a long time, which is less time than the finches have been observed, but for speciation, the time spans may well take orders of magnitude more. I don’t know how many years it would take, as it probably would vary, but suspect a range of 200K and up for most to truly develop as new species. Dogs are sort a sub-species of wolf, as they still interbreed, but is thought they separated about 18-32 thousand years ago, and have had help from us in differentiating and breeding.
It is difficult to understand deep time but that is the key ingredient.

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That was an analogy. You didn’t comment on my other statements. Why would a whale have useless hindlimbs?

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@EDC1

You are not the only one who has these concerns. Some Creationists are willing to allow for a population to “change slightly or a lot” - - but when they are asked to accept that at least one of the separated sub-populations can change into something VERY different … that’s when we have some major objections.

It just so happens that another thread has one or two particularly relevant postings on this topic! One of them is reproduced below:

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The Australian Case Study: Marsupial Radiation Tracked
via Genetic Fingerprints of Ancient Viruses!

This post really should get its own thread (and it will, eventually).

“Tracking Marsupial Evolution Using Archaic Genomic Retroposon Insertions” by Maria A. Nilsson, Gennady Churakov, Mirjam Sommer, Ngoc Van Tran, Anja Zemann, Jürgen Brosius, and Jürgen Schmitz
PLoS Biol. 2010 Jul; 8(7): e1000436. Published online 2010 Jul 27. PMCID: PMC2910653 PMID: 20668664

Notice in the image below, the various branches of Marsupial populations that appear to be derived from a population in South America. Since the original discovery of this one population, decades ago, genetic analysis has shown that the existing marsupials of Australia are the result of this one population “radiating outward” into various empty niches - - to be vigorously exploited by emerging marsupial specialized forms - - in safe isolation from the placental mammals that were coming to dominate the rest of the world!

[Be sure to click on the images to enlarge text to a more convenient font size!]


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A “zoom” of this image will be of particular value to us later on, because it creates a convenient grouping of some fairly disparate phenotypes:

While at the top we have “shrew-like” forms, and at the bottom we have “kanga” forms aggregated, in the middle grouping, we have the suggestion that three very distinct groupings share a close heritage:

Dasyuromorphia: the group having most of Australia’s carnivorous marsupials, including
quolls,
dunnarts,
the numbat,
the Tasmanian devil,
and the thylacine.
[In Australia, the exceptions include the marsupial moles and the omnivorous bandicoots.]

Notoryctemorphia: moles, vegetarian

Peremelamorphia: bandicoots & bilbies “the characteristic bandicoot shape: a plump, arch-backed body with a long, delicately tapering snout, very large upright ears, relatively long, thin legs, and a thin tail. Their size varies from about 140 grams up to 4 kilograms, but most species are about one kilogram, or the weight of a half-grown kitten [4 kilograms = 4 half-grown kittens].”
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Tracking-Marsupial-Evolution-2010-Maria-Nilsson-02
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This is the ideal “research scenario” to see how much genetic change occurs, and how quickly - - according to Evolutionary Theory - - to accomplish divergence into three distinctive “forms” of marsupials!

Australia provides the perfect example of how 3 different populations, surprisingly closely related via Common Descent, can come to look dramatically different from the original population!

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Would you like to learn about whale anatomy, up close and personal, including hindlimbs? You should. Here is a fascinating and instructive video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXccTHXPYfM
Features veterinary scientist Mark Evans and comparative anatomist Dr. Joy Reidenberg. It’s a dissection of a whale that died of natural causes.

I also suggest that you try to catch the traveling exhibition: Whales: Giants of the Deep which was developed and presented by the Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa. It features more than 20 skulls and skeletons from various whale species (ancient and modern) and showcases many rare specimens, including the real skeleton of a male sperm whale measuring 58 feet long (or about 18 feet longer than a school bus); etc. I saw it at the AMNH; not sure where it is now, but it was amazing!.

Hippos are the closest living relatives of whales. In this cute video you can see a mother and baby hippo swimming together.

’ And the hind limbs encased in the body walls of some whales? Theres another clue’.

If all whales are descended from 4-legged animals, why do not all whales have those hind limbs encased in their body walls?

So @beaglelady asked:

And @EDC1 replied:

That certainly is a strange response, and a non-answer to @beaglelady’s question. However, I shall help thee out and have one idea that answers both questions. It is because the Intelligent Designer loves promiscuous cetaceans! (special @pevaquark note: the link is to an academic paper it’s safe I promise!) The Intelligent Designer gave some some tiny hind limbs so they can get busy more often, with selection pressure for larger certain parts, and removed the tiny hind limbs in other cetaceans because He doesn’t like it when they try to get busy.

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Since I’m not seeing the ‘post moved’ thing I moved the other posts related to the book Heretic here:

Please carry on here with ‘Whales did (NOT) evolve!’

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A post was merged into an existing topic: The ID Book ‘Heretic:’ A Brave Journey where No Man Has Gone Before

After reading the article I suggest that you don’t tell a whale his pelvis is vestigial.

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Don’t know. Some shrink way down, and some disappear. But what Is a whale doing with legs?

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weren’t some of the hind limbs encased in the body wall? Why does a whale need a vestigial pelvis? Simply to fool us?

@EDC1,

There’s plenty of ironic responses. But I think you are still looking for some kind of answer. It goes back to the same answer for why do both Chimps and humans have broken genes for processing vitamin “C”.

If whales don’t need tiny legs, does this mean humans don’t need vitamin C? As many an early world explorer will tell you … humans certainly do! British sailors came to be called limeys because sailors were given rations of citrus fruit to make sure they didn’t suffer scurvy too much or too frequently.

The conventional answer for why the common ancestor for chimps and humans lived with a broken vitamin C gene is straightforward: things like this happen with no ill effect on a population if the population already gets a sufficient supply of Vitamin C in its diet! If subsequent generations (like chimps or humans) make a significant move to some other region, where the diet is different, the population begins to suffer.

Does this mean as soon as a population starts getting plenty of some nutrient (like vitamin C) that the gene for that nutrient (if there is one) will break? No. But given a long enough existence, a population experiences defects in all chromosomes, and all parts of the chromosomes. If there is a negative effect to that change, sickliness or death will help make sure that the important gene that is broken will not spread too quickly within the population. In a large population, there are low-priority broken genes scattered throughout the genome… in low quantities - - essentially because the gene is not that important.

So, for proto-whales… who have stopped visiting dry land (even for mating) … after a few million years, some genes that supported the growth of rear limbs broke here or there. In the beginning, the legs might have still worked, but became smaller and weaker, because when an additional gene broke that affected only the rear limbs, nothing good or bad happened either way. It isn’t clear to me whether we all agree that some whales now have tiny remnants of pelvic bones and feet embedded inside their body… invisible and quite useless. I will assume that this is a true situation; I’ve heard this more than once before.

For a person like me, who holds to the view that God is in charge of mutations just as much as he is in charge of the so-called “original design” that Creationists hold to, does something like this make more sense in an Evolutionary model than in a Creationism model? I would say “Yes!”.

A Creationist has to say that God made that whale like that from the very beginning. An Evolutionist just has to say that God is on his way to making a new kind of whale… and this is his process.

I feel this is highly deceptive. There is a generally understood meaning of the term evolution.
Evolution is commonly understood as a non-teleological process.
How many scientists would agree that evolution is a goal oriented process?

Really?
So at Bio-logos Evolution can be defined as “Purposeful descent with modification supervised by an intelligent being who also directs and sustains the process towards predefined Goals”?
Pls correct me if i understood wrong.
@pevaquark : Pls chip in with your definition and how exactly it is teleological if you believe so.
@jpm
@T_aquaticus; @beaglelady ; @Bill_II - Just for my understanding. Do you guys also understand evolution to be teleological (i.e a goal oriented process?)
I would call that design… And what you are describing is intelligent design, which many here seem to hold in such scorn.
I personally hate double talk like this. (I understand you may not see it as double talk).

I guess the only difference is that you guys dont want to investigate whether this is true and whether it can be scientifically proven.
And neither do you want to engage with the scientific world regarding teleology in evolution (its currently a minority position in the scientific world).

I can’t speak for anyone else on this forum, but personally I do. Basically, because as a computer programmer, my understanding of evolution comes first and foremost through the “lens” of evolutionary algorithms – as I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread. Evolutionary algorithms are used to design things to meet specific practical requirements.

I would call it intelligent design as well. And I fully understand why you might think the positions that some people on this forum sound like double talk. There’s a lot of scope for confusion and misunderstanding about the subject of Intelligent Design, and I think this is something that everyone on this forum needs to bear in mind.

What exactly does “Intelligent Design” refer to anyway?

The biggest problem is that the term “Intelligent Design” itself is highly ambiguous. It can mean one of several different things. Three in particular come to mind:

  1. The belief that the process of creation, whether it was by entirely natural processes or whether it involved supernatural intervention, was actively directed by God.
  2. Claims that divine intervention in nature can be identified using the tools of the scientific method (for example, the irreducible complexity of the bacterial flagellum).
  3. A group of people (primarily centred around the Discovery Institute) who are trying to see (2) gain serious recognition by the scientific community and be taught in science classes in schools.

Many of the objections to Intelligent Design that you see tend to focus on (3). A lot of these arguments are purely political, and are concerned more with what the First Amendment of the US Constitution does or does not mean, and whether or not the Discovery Institute’s motivations are justifiable or not. Regardless of what conclusions you come to in this respect, the US Constitution is not the sixty-seventh Book of the Bibie, and it is not the ultimate arbiter of truth.

Unfortunately, because the term “Intelligent Design” refers to at least three different things, there’s a lot of scope for equivocation and misunderstanding. When someone critiques Intelligent Design in sense (3) or even sense (2) without qualification, it can all too easily sound like they are heaping scorn on sense (1) as well.

Arguments against religious presuppositions miss the point.

There are far too many arguments about Intelligent Design being “religion, not science,” or being all about “introducing religious presuppositions into science.” I find these arguments particularly jarring when they are made by people who self-identify as evangelical Christians, because it sounds like they’re just repeating arguments in support of atheism. Even when they are made by non-Christians, such arguments still sound like they themselves are motivated first and foremost by religious (or anti-religious) presuppositions of their own.

In any case, they completely miss the point. The question that we should be asking about claims of ID advocates (in senses (2) or (3) above) is not about what motivates them, but about whether or not they are getting their facts straight. Any opposition should not be to the concept of Intelligent Design itself, but to sloppy thinking, falsehood, unjustified assertions, and resistance to critique in claims made in support of it. Basically, the heart of the matter is to insist that they are getting their facts straight.

I made this point with respect to young-earth creationism here. Exactly the same principles apply in the case of ID:

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For me, yes.

Well I believe there is an Intelligent designer, AKA God. The scorn comes about because the ID folks want to talk about design but not the designer. Can’t have one without the other. Also no mention is ever made of exactly how this design came to be.

Where we differ is I know it to be true because the Bible tells me so. However it can’t be detected by the scientific method. “Proven” is probably the wrong word to use. Rainfall is a perfectly natural process which has no goal. Meteorologists don’t look for God and don’t try to find God in the process. And yet the Bible says God sends the rain when and where He desires. Same with evolution.

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@Ashwin_s ( @pevaquark, @T.j_Runyon, @T_aquaticus, @Mervin_Bitikofer, @jpm ):

It seems that you are among the last to find out: there are Christians with a science vocation who
simultaneously:

  1. believe Evolution is teleological, but
  2. do not believe the teleological nature of Evolution can be proved, nor that it can even be detected, by scientific method.

How is this true?: there are many ways for God to have shaped life on Earth, and each one is virtually impossible to test - Let’s use the dino-killing asteroid as a natural event, believed to have been at the hand of God:

A) By arranging to wipe out the dinosaurs and their ilk, God made it possible for a broad range of large mammals to evolve from the very small mammals that had evaded extinction by being too small for dinosaurs to effectively hunt them into oblivion. But there are no tests for God’s intentions!

B) For many Christians, their religious premises tell them that the mere fact the asteroid hit the Earth is enough for them to know God planned for that. Christian Scientists affirm the intelligence of the events and the resulting effect by religious interpretation, not by scientific interpretation.

C) Scientists are not in a position where they can test:
i] whether the asteroid collision was something in arranged for by purely natural lawful means (the asteroid was created by the collision of other natural bodies somewhere beyond Earth’s orbit around the Sun);

    • versus - -

ii] God “poofed” the asteroid into existence and aimed it at just the right trajectory to collide with Earth at exactly the desired angle.

Many Creationists are surprised to learn that what separate BioLogos from Creationist group is not the verdict on divine design, nor the verdict on teleology - - but the verdict on whether Science can find or detect the actions of God and/or whether it is beneficial, or too societally risky, to teach religious aspects of Creation in the public schools.

But here’s the most important thing:

You write: "I feel this is highly deceptive. There is a generally understood meaning of the term evolution.
Evolution is commonly understood as a non-teleological process."

This is the very thing BioLogos seeks to change – to show that Christians can embrace the scientific side of Evolution without it affecting their Christian faith, and also without affecting how the science of Evolution is conducted. What looks random to the human mind is, by our religious calculus, is not random to God.

As a fan of American pragmatism and American constitutionalism, I can imagine the first post-American Revolution politicians were criticized when they referred to America as a “democracy”! I can imagine some “old school” political essayist insisting that “democracy” has only meant “rule by the mob” and so their terminology is wrong.

But what the post-revolutionary politicians were doing was encouraging an additional meaning to the term “democracy” - - which captured the essence of the American political model:

  • a system with no king or even a house of Lords (with land titles conferred by land ownership).
  • a system where factions were able to freely compete for support from the electorate;
  • a system where the above points were valid and true, despite slaves, women and most men with insufficient property to qualify for voting.

The politicians could have attempted to invent a completely different word - - but found it easier, and more compelling to the voters, to add to the dictionary meaning of Democracy, rather than to add to the confusion by inventing a brand new term.

The parallels to the use of Evolution are quite close:

the term Evolution, as used by its earliest promoters, required randomness and God’s lack of engagement with natural laws that control evolution and/or God’s existence not even acknowledged.

But as the evidence for “Common Descent with Modification” started to accumulate, and the use of the phrase “Survival of the Fittest” began to be replaced by “Natural Selection”, Christians who found the natural evidence more convincing than the denials by Creationists - - the need for a new [possible] understanding for Creation became increasingly evident. Thus, if Speciation could occur by God arranging for sufficient levels of mutation, which could lead eventually to changes in reproductive compatibility, the word Evolution was still applicable, since Creationists rejected the possibility for such things.

It was reasoned that -
Since God could use at various times both miracles (i.e., special creation) OR natural laws to make rain or to make a new species; and
Since God appears to have gone out of His way to leave evidence for “common descent” and “speciation” by natural processes; then:

a new category of Evolution must be defined where Evolution is in the hands of God, rather than in the hands of nobody.

@Ashwin_s, I hope this helps you understand the underpinnings for why there is a new (additional) definition for Evolution.

ADDENDUM - -
You wrote:

I think you attempting to define those who believe God employs naturally produced Speciation and Common Descent as Creationism is another kind of double-talk. If Special Creation is making Adam in a “poof” event . . . then clearly making a human over millions of years can’t be Creationism. The process is easy to define: it is evolution. The part that you call Teleological is not available to science for further analysis or even detection.

So . . . by all objective measures, Evolution is still Evolution.

I have little more to add as I am pretty much the same boat as the other responders. I think intelligent design is good philosophy, though it tends to infer a small God who has to fine-tune and fix things, whereas my concept of God is more of an artist applying brush strokes on the canvas or chiseling the Pieta from a block of stone. The ID movement however seems to have overreached in applying it to the scientific process without basis to do so.

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Hi Ashwin,

I am not a biologist, but if I have understood biology correctly, then your assertion is dead wrong. Speciation is not quantized; the only thing that can be quantized is the number of mutations (of various sorts) across space–e.g., between individuals in a population–and across time.

This is exactly the situation with linguistics, where individuals and populations innovate in their idioms, verb declensions, etc., both across space and across time. I discovered the spatial dimension when my family moved from Ohio to South Carolina a long, long time ago. Everyone in South Carolina spoke English, but it wasn’t quite the same English that my Ohio neighbors spoke.

Moreover, there is a kind of speciation event in language evolution; it occurs when the speakers of the descendant language and the speakers of the original language can no longer understand one another without translation. This is why I had to wrestle so hard with the Canterbury Tales in high school lit; it was written in the contemporary language of the English isle, but that language was not the English I knew.

This is why language is a very good (though imperfect) analogy for biological evolution.

Blessings,
Chris

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I think it’s pretty much God-of-the-gaps theology, where God serves as a placeholder for scientific ignorance. And God therefore shrinks with each discovery of some missing piece of evidence.