Terry, stop using the heading font to yell at people.
Yes and yes. It’s hard for us to comprehend today, but reading and writing were considered separate skills in the ancient world. Paul may have been educated in the traditional Greek way (reading mostly poets), but schools in Galilee and Judea were synagogue schools where children (boys only?) would be taught to read the Hebrew scriptures. Writing wasn’t part of the curriculum.
My parenthetical comment (boys only?) reflects the misogyny of the first-century rabbi Eliezer ben Hyrcanus preserved in two sayings recorded in the Mishnah, the later written record of the oral tradition: “The words of Torah should be burned rather than taught to women,” and “Anyone who teaches his daughter Torah teaches her tiflut,” a rare Hebrew word originally translated “lewdness” or “lechery,” but which later rabbis softened to “nonsense,” reflecting the medieval opinion that women were not intellectually serious enough to study Torah.
My only other quibble is also a question for @mtp1032, since I’m too lazy to look up the sources for myself. I seem to recall that the Pharisees were mostly scribes too. Has memory failed me?
Addendum:
Preserved in the Babylonian Talmud (ca. 300) is a traditional morning prayer that reflects the outlook of the typical Jewish man of the first century:
Blessed are You, Lord our God, King of the universe, who has not made me a Gentile.
Blessed are You, Lord our God, King of the universe, who has not made me a slave.
Blessed are You, Lord our God, King of the universe, who has not made me a woman.
It was in that cultural milieu that Jesus accepted women as disciples and let them travel with him and sit at his feet while he taught.
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Some of the disagreement seems to stem from the need to define “literate”. Given the practical usefulness for business, the cultural valuing of the words of Scripture, and the relative ease of learning an alphabet, it is quite likely that most men in first-century Judea had a basic level of being able to make out words and note things down. Written notices were considered to be effective ways at reaching the general populace (such as the sign proclaiming Jesus to be king of the Jews at the crucifixion or the warning notice for Gentiles to stay out of the temple). Judges reports that Gideon was able to ask a boy to write down peoples’ names, and we have letters written between fairly ordinary people on ostraca. So a basic level of literacy had a long history in the land. But that is not the same as being skilled at writing or able to quickly read something that is not familiar.
Many Pharisees were scribes and vice versa, though many were not.
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When he was twelve years old, Jesus went to the Temple to discuss Scripture with the learned. They were amazed with the young boy’s understanding of the passages. Throughout his ministry Jesus reinterpreted the meaning of much sacred Biblical content. To even suggest that he was illiterate is a travesty.
That shows no more than that He had a fantastic memory.
Yeah, especially 'cause I don’t know how to do that!
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Many Pharisees could read but not write. They also relied greatly on memorization, especially of what they regarded as key passages – and looked down on those who didn’t have the leisure to commit vast sections of Torah to memory.
This is probably why we get the common couplet “scribes and Pharisees”.
I remember translating that in Hebrew class.
Letters, orders to subordinates, supply requests, memos, even shopping lists.
The latter made us laugh when we translated one (a tough one; the handwriting was horrid).
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Here’s what Britannica has to say,
“In the 1st century, scribes and Pharisees were two largely distinct groups, though presumably some scribes were Pharisees. Scribes had knowledge of the law and could draft legal documents (contracts for marriage, divorce, loans, inheritance, mortgages, the sale of land, and the like). Every village had at least one scribe.”
Click the link for more information.
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Lots of issues here, Vinnie…Jesus’ literacy? star of Bethlehem? snakes in Genesis…Gen 1-11 and how YEC people read Genesis in its early chapters. Is the Pope Catholic?
I just attended some biblical seminars where one speaker, at least, talked about whether or not Jesus was literate. The issue of literacy in that era fascinates us because we demand it of people. Flusser said, in his book Sage from Galilee, that carpenters were regarded, in that era, as “particularly learned.” Does that mean “literate”? Probably they did not care. It probably is an item of interest to us and no other era…
From here you fly to other subjects, such as the birth narratives of Jesus. …if there was some question about Jesus’ background – i.e., was He a mamzer ?? or ??? …and if there were some other necessity, then discussing the matter of Jesus’ birth was not just a one-off idea. Suetonius, Tacitus, and Josephus noted that there was an expectation that a man coming from Judea would rule the world…and this tidbit gets referenced in discussions of the Son of God scroll among the Dead Sea Scrolls, in ancient interpretations of the book of Daniel, as well as these other individuals. If people were expecting something of the sort, then of course someone would attach that to a biography --…and the dates for the composition of Matthew seem to range from 65 to 85 A.D./CE or “80s or 90s,” depending on who you read—which would not be a century later – but to the first generation of church history, per Blomberg. Maybe that seems long after the fact to you and me, but you and I do not know what earlier scribblings or notes may have existed…I did hear one archaeologist talk — in some other lecture — about how accurate Luke --whose gospel was written around the same time as Matthew’s – is. Gets his details right, knows the titles of officials, understands the geography — knows medical terms that the average person of that era would not know—at least per this speaker. If this person applauded Luke’s carefulness, then Matthew should be judged a bit better. Obviously someone in that era knew how to get information right.
There may be many perspectives on the birth accounts in the gospels, but not all so negative as yours and I do not know that all of them are from YEC or some other group whom you find perplexing.
As for this mysterious star — as you said, it could have been anything. But it need not have been a literal star. Some note that “star” was thought of as a living thing in that era and the OT references stars when discussing angels. I also like the astronomical conjunction idea— which you seem to be aware of. But the star settling over a house is a little “much” when discussing some gassy body many parsecs away. So it could have been an angelic visitation — or maybe a combination of angelic and astronomical phenomena is meant. This does not reduce the value of the biblical narrative. They were emphasizing a birth experience for the reason of highlighting the importance of the individual who was born. …as well as to show He was no mamzer…And no, kidneys are useful but not much for thinking great thoughts.
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That contradicts what I found, which said that only large towns were likely to have scribes.
Yes it jumps because this thread was made by Christy as some of us got off topic. My original post led to a lot of it but it was in response to an article on what science and scripture says about the Bethlehem star that was recently posted by the Biologos president. The response is still in there. It was never intended to be a new thread. I stand by my point that wondering about the Bethlehem star is like wondering about the type of snake in Eden.
Thanks for the explanation…but quite an email trail on this post !!! Snakes in Eden? maybe, maybe not—the snake/serpent motif appears in other “flood” or creation-type stories…Star? something caught people’s attention (or some people’s) and that is part of the whole event. The natural or supernatural explanation is just hard to come by at this point.
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- Grandmothers have a pass to B.S. their grandkids, but hired Christian educators should be vetted before hiring to insure that they do not feed that kind of nonsense to the little ones. A careful reading of Matthew 2:1-12 makes it fairly obvious that no star “settled over Joseph and Mary’s house”.
- "In the time of King Herod, after Jesus was born in Bethlehem from the East came to Jerusalem, asking, “Where is the child who has been born king of the Jews? For we observed his star at its rising, and have come to pay him homage.” When King Herod heard this, he was frightened and all Jerusalem with him; and calling together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Messiah was to be born. They told him, “In Bethlehem of Judea; for so it has been written by the prophet: ‘"And you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who is to shepherd my people Israel.’" Then Herod secretly called for the wise men and learned from them the exact time when the star had appeared. Then he sent them to Bethlehem, saying, “Go and search diligently for the child; and when you have found him, bring me word so that I may also go and pay him homage.” When they had heard the king, they set out; and there, ahead of them, went the star that they had seen at its rising, until it stopped over the place where the child was. When they saw that the star had stopped, they were overwhelmed with joy. On entering the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother; and they knelt down and paid him homage. Then, opening their treasure chests, they offered him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. And having been warned in a dream not to return to Herod, they left for their own country by another path.”
Good conversations about scribal activity here. I just listened to a lecture by a biblical scholar who says/said that inkwells and fishing equipment have been found in a first or second century house in Bethsaida…pretty interesting!! He seemed to think this house was actually the apostle Peter’s home — not the well-known tourist hub in Capernaum. I am not sure how “settled” his assertions are with regard to that.
I also listened to discussions about whether scribes actually sat at desks “scribing” or whether it was less formal…that is, scribes could be people who followed a certain person around taking notes on what they said — like some of us today might be “texting as we go” . Were scribes well educated? another lecturer said scribes could have been slaves. Maybe slaves were literate? I have also read that “disciples” fo rabbis could and did take notes as their rabbi spoke —which presumes that rabbis like Jesus or Gamaliel etc — had followers who were educated that way…
Seems to me that we have lots of undeveloped data when it comes to the nature of scribes and their activities. So stay tuned for the next discovery!
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Matthew 2:9-10 — “…and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them till it stopped over the place where the child was. When they saw the star, they were overjoyed.”
This does sound like a “star” of some kind …and others have noted that some OT passages equate stars with angels (maybe not all passages but you can come up with a few that way). It’s speculation, for sure, but not out of bounds to speculate that the “star” could have been a combination of astral events + supernatural events as well.
- Hold on! Stop the presses! inkwells and fishing equipment found in a 1st or 2nd cent. house in Bethsaida?? That’s about 60 km. from Nazareth, at the north end of the Sea of Galilee. So, I searched for more info and came across this: Top Three Reports in Biblical Archaeology – August 2023 .
- The 2nd report was about the inkwell and fishing equipment "…in the same house! From the report, “The El Araj Excavation Project recently completed its summer dig season and uncovered more evidence showing that the site was a first-century fishing village, possibly the New Testament town of Bethsaida. This year the team excavated in Area D and continued to find evidence of occupation in the first century. These finds included coins, pottery, fishing weights, and stone vessels. In addition, an inkwell was discovered in a home that also contained numerous fishing weights. This would seem to indicate that first-century fishermen could be literate. Some scholars have suggested that fishermen like Peter and John could not have written New Testament books because they were merely illiterate fishermen. The discovery of an inkwell in a fisherman’s home challenges this assumption.”
- So much for “critical scholars”, eh?
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- “The Bethlehem Star” thing because an issue for Christmas Play directors and budding children “Nativity Scene” actors, … until Christian sweaters start unraveling. No star, no Magi; No Magi, no Slaughter of the Innocents? No Slaughter of the Innocents? Did Herod the Great get a bad rap for something he was never responsible.
- Not too worry, my previous info suggests that there is enough historical evidence to make the killing of some babies plausible, if not documented fact… [See The Slaughter of the Innocents: Historical Fact or Legendary Fiction?
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Thanks Terry…and yes, good reference above…I did just hear this data at a biblical archaeology seminar a couple weeks ago (Not from a fundamentalist or evangelical source either)…time will tell if it all holds up, so to speak…but interesting nonetheless…
As for all those unraveling Christian sweaters…save your money and buy them half-off after the holidays! Yes, Herod was 68 or 69 years old, likely had arteriosclorosis (sp) and had already ordered the executions of sons, wives (think he had 10 of them but not all of them produced children for him)…no reason to think he could not have been threatened by news of “the Messiah” — especially since Herod himself believed himself to be the Messiah…as the King Herod character screamed in Zefferelli’s “Jesus of Nazareth” — “This is MY worldemphasized text** I will not share it with an infant”…no reason to suppose Herod would not have authorized a terrorist attack on a small village…NOT likely to have been tons of baby boys ages two and under though…I have read estimates of 15 or 20…BUT to the moms of those babies (and the dads) it was a horrific thing…not a great scene in a Christmas play, for sure!
Thanks for the updates.
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Please cite all the critical scholars that say no fishermen in antiquity could read or write. No critical scholar anywhere that I know would ever say that a fishermen could not be literate under any circumstances. They would argue it is unlikely in that time and place. Not to mention we are talking about Aramaic speaking fishermen writing in high Greek, a completely different issue, which only compounds the difficulty. Do Aramaic speaking fisherman use the Septuagint in written discourses? Does that article not know this?
And we know nothing about about the home aside form it having inkwells and fishing equipment. Like who in the home was writing and who was fishing. Same person. What did the writing consist of? Contracts? Epistles? Leap to conclusions much?
Acts pretty much says the same thing when it calls them unlettered. So much for “Acts,” eh?
I just don’t see that: a different type of snake isn’t relevant to the point of the Eden story in the eyes of anyone I’ve ever known, whereas the reality of the Bethlehem star could be a deal breaker for some.
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