Was Adam the first Homo sapien?

Hi Tom,

I’ll admit that I didn’t know that the most recent numbers are those in your post, the data I was referring to was from way back in 2013, lol. I still think that it was highly unlikely that Mito Eve and Y-Adam lived at the same time.

The 12,000 BCE constraint that most YEC leaders abide to is from 2 things, one that you just mentioned, the start of agriculture. Before your post I’d never heard of that early of a date, I’ve understood that it appeared suddenly on earth 12,000 years ago.

The other reason is that those leaders don’t feel comfortable pushing the genealogy in Genesis past that date.

1 Cor 15:45&47 say Adam was “the first man.” So, I disagree. What it means that the Bible says Adam was the first man is up for discussion. Pages and pages and pages of it. :wink:

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@Richard_Wright1

Mito Eve and Y- Adam are not the same people as @Swamidass’s Adam and Eve. His pair, by God- assisted pairing of their heirs, have become ONE of the (hundreds/thousands) of Pairs who have become Universal Common Ancestors for all of humanity - - based on genealogy, not based on genetics.

Thanks for the feedback, this is a good point that needs to be addressed. In short, Paul in the making the point that we are sown in corruptible seed and will be raised in incorruptable seed. Adam, from whom we are all descended, is from the earth (YLT):
47 The first man [is] out of the earth, earthy; the second man [is] the Lord out of heaven;
48 as [is] the earthy, such [are] also the earthy; and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] also the heavenly;

I was mostly just being difficult, Tom. :stuck_out_tongue: I agree that Paul is making a point about eschatology, not history. But sometimes I like to remind the science skeptics watching that some of us science believers still read our Bibles and know what’s in there.

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I just wanted to note how much I appreciate this forum, I am not looking for agreement necessarily, but for intelligent discussion, which I am getting!

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@Swamidass’s discussion of this Genealogical concept takes some getting used to!

Several studies have shown that All the People Alive, some 3000 or 4000 years ago, are divided into just two groups:

(A) Those whose genealogical lineage ran into sufficient blockage to descent, that not a single one person alive today descends from the (A) Group of ancient humanity. Not too surprisingly, the more time elapses, the more likely that a lineage will be cut short by some combination of bad circumstances and global calamity!

(B) The other group, (B) Group, is the ancestor of not just some of the people alive today, but all of the people alive today.

How is this possible? There are two reasons:

  1. There are no places on Earth that doesn’t have some people leaving or some people arriving. And given enough time, even the tiniest factor of immigration and emigration triggers a tumbling waterfall of genealogical expansion into any territory inhabited by humans.

  2. Secondly, the mathematical progression tells us that within a thousand years, Charlemagne should have more descendants than the number of people who have ever been born! Obviously, this is too many descendants to be considered credible. The reason nobody ever gets that many descendants is because of the inevitability of distant cousins to eventually find each other and pair up!

Each time distant cousins mate, a section of Genealogical Chart collapses in on itself… instead of having “X number” of ancestors in the 20th generation, you now only have “X-1” of ancestors in the 20th generation. And this “collapsing” house of cards extends backwards in time, geometrically expanding with each generation, all the way back to Africa!

Indeed, this inevitability is repeated many times in any one person’s genealogical chart. Mathematical projections going back into the mists of pre-history have measured the approximate time when someone’s genealogical embrace of ancestors exceeds the actual number of people estimated to be alive in, say, 3000 BCE - - or 3500 BCE - - or 4000 BCE…

This creates the mathematical certainty that everyone alive in that ancient slice of time, say 3200 BCE, is the ultimate source of all people alive today - - once you eliminate those individuals who were unable to bring a single descendant of theirs into the modern period.

Now, @Richard_Wright1, back to your question, how is it possible regarding Adam & Eve?

All Adam and Eve had to accomplish was to get a single descendant down to, say, 3200 BCE, and by God’s will, not into one of the lineages that was inevitably going to go extinct.

In so doing, Adam & Eve, as well as hundreds if not thousands of other pairs, become the inevitable ancestor of all humanity alive just before the birth of Jesus.

Important Distinctions:
A) Adam & Eve are not unique in being the ancestor of all humans alive today. There are hundreds of other pairs that can lay claim to the same honor - - if we knew their genealogical charts.

B) Adam & Eve’s descendants would have been guided by God (knowingly or not) to avoid the genealogical dead-ends.

C) It only takes a very small amount of immigration/emigration into the world’s most isolated regions to accomplish the Universality of the genealogical expansion.

D) Some famous people of history were genealogical failures – even if they had many children and grandchildren while they were still alive. Somewhere down the tree … every descendant became blocked by early death, poor fertility, or global catastrophe.

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But even when Adam and Eve supposedly lived, somewhere between 6,000 and 10,000 years ago, there were still people all over the world. How can they and their descendants be part of the A&E lineage? Are they all supposed to be apart of this Group B? This seems so far removed from the biblical A&E, it’s really concording.

Armenian scientists have proved that the first man was not Adam, but Adamyan.

Not sure what that means, but googling adamyan led me Adamians or Adamites. Early Christianity certainly had some interesting variations.

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@Richard_Wright1

The point the Swami is making is that it is feasible for a couple circa less than 8000 years ago to join with several other pairs to become Universal Common Ancestors to everyone alive just before the birth of Jesus.

So the only hindrance is:

  1. Making the Biblical case that Cain married into this larger, non-Adamite lineage;

  2. And the Great Flood was originally written as a regional flood … with most of the non- Adamites surviving.

  3. Then eventually the story was revised to support the global flood scenario to fit the editorial preferences of at least one school of priests.

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@Richard_Wright1

I encourage you to read these two papers and references therin:

@gbrooks9, thanks for your enthusiastic reference here. I appreciate it, but there is enough complexity here it might help to point people to the articles and then pick it up with them after they read them.

Though I must say that your explanation is pretty good. With one important tweak…

I would just emphasize that there is no real “guiding” required here except to make sure all Adam’s descendents aren’t wiped out in the first few generations, or a catastrophe a bit later. No fine tuning of this is required.

If you can, I would request you let people know that I am not exactly advocating for this specific scenario. Rather I am insisting we allow for it as a possibility. This is a reasonable scenario that some might find attractive. As for myself, I embrace the mystery while affirming both evolution and a historical Adam.

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When one considers origins myths and stories from different cultures how far can a society remember? Can they remember before they were a social group just a tribe of hunter gatherers?
It seems that very few of the native Americans origins myths (if any?) can point back to a Siberian origin. The collective memory of a group of people would seem to be influenced by an ability to have a continuous verbal relay from generation to generation. This collective memory can be lost over time with societal disruption.
What is of interest to me is that the people of the Bible point their origins to a time of life in the garden of Eden. Eden was probably where the roots of Hebrew and most middle eastern civilization began (see Gobekli Tepe) around 11000 years ago. This is where middle eastern hunter gathers converted to a sedentary domesticated life style with social structure and organized religion. Perhaps this is just where the Bible is defining the origins of their people.

Hi George,

I’m going to read the articles that Joshua referenced, but the bible isn’t IMO supporting a global flood, they didn’t understand a globe, it was a flood of the world that they knew, the, “land”, not the, “earth”. They didn’t know about an earth.

Or they could just be lucky, the winners of the pedigree collapse lottery. Their autosomal DNA probably made little if any impact on modern humans.[quote=“TGLarkin, post:5, topic:36190”]
Pedigree collapse just means there are a limited number of possible ancestors, but I believe that limit would be much greater than one.
[/quote]

It means that we have offspring with our cousins, albeit distantly related cousins. This means that over time a direct lineal maternal or paternal line will end or keep going, and that will mostly be due to luck.

Let’s say that we took 50,000 humans and sent them to another planet. They spend 1,000 generations on the planet, and their population size stays 50,000 the entire time. Chances are that there will be a mitochondrial Eve and y chromosome Adam that was either in the initial population or in a subsequent generation. During the time of these ancestor’s existence they wouldn’t have stuck out at all, they would be just like any other person in the population.

The point is that you will have mitochondrial Eve’s and y chromosome Adam’s in any normal sexually reproducing population.

@Richard_Wright1

Ok… let’s pretend I didn’t say global.

I maintain that the story we find in the Bible is written (Jon would say modified) to reflect a total flooding of all the land God had made.

@Jonathan_Burke asserts that the story (at least originally I suppose) was written to describe a flood that only flooded part of the land that God created.

There is no pedigree collapse “lottery.” The vast majority of ancestors become universal genealogical ancestors. But most are not genetic ancestors. The “lottery” is for genetics, not genealogies.

This is the wrong analogy entirely. You are talking about genetics, not genealogies.

@Swamidass

Have you found this ‘fact’ to be consistently cited in the genealogy articles you have reviewed? I am all about general conclusions … but I wouldn’t have thought we could say “the vast majority of ancestors” … but you are wording it by saying “the vast majority of ancestors” … which is different from saying “the vast majority of people who lived in “X” period” …

So I don’t think I’ll worry about it for now …

Since TGLarkin was talking about genetics, that is what I was referring to.

Are the references for these studies those listed by Dr. Swamidass below or are there other references?

Thanks