Sir,
I’m happy to join discussions here, but I draw the line at being drawn into “gotcha” types of discussions or questions.
By definition, none of Jesus metaphors are literal. That is the very definition of metaphor, which I suspect you and I both know quite well. With that, I will respectfully bow out of this conversation.
Hmmm. So Jesus lied by using culturally appropriate metaphor to motivate people?
Klax from what ive seen you are here saying that Jesus didnt taught of an afterlife and on my other topic you are defending the idea of afterlife? Im confused a bit. Thanks!!. Maybe because i havent read all the comments here
He was the tacit, implicit, living embodiment of afterlife. There was no question of afterlife because He existed. The was no question of it anyway for the vast majority of His contemporaries; there were very few rationalists; atheists, non-superstitious thinkers. He embodied the quality of afterlife by His life. By His living. He taught how to live and be in the light of best case eternal life, of no doubt eternal life, of equality of outcome eternal life. He taught that we should pursue universal social justice here below as that is what is obtained above. There is no evil in the afterlife. No lack. No want. No injustice. No pain. Eventually. Therefore pursue that impossible dream here and now while any other is in need. People had all manner of bizarre afterlife beliefs, as below, so above; He inverted and everted them, turned them upside down and inside out. He corrected them. He made the significant insignificant, the insignificant significant. Socially. Blessed are the poor. That’s paradise. That’s the Kingdom of Eternal Life. Now.
Dear Daniel,
Can you please quote the aforementioned threats from Jesus that specifically say eternal damnation? I can’t find any, The problem I see with Christians who reject His universalism is that they cannot see the time span that the restoration takes, none of His followers could understand even the 13.7 billions years that had passed since He entered the material world. Most cannot comprehend the 13.7+ billion years souls have been separated from God. Jesus came to restore them from the fire that they have endured for an eternity. There are billions of years left in His restoration, not just one lifetime.
Best wishes, Shawn
Not just one 13.7 billion years either.
where is the metaphor?
Dear Nick,
Purely from a biblical standpoint and the from the words of Jesus, here is the basis for universalism.
Jesus is the King of Heaven (John 18:36) and when Lucifer rebelled, he rebelled against Jesus. Jesus lost 1/3 of His flock when Lucifer became the adversary - Satan. But Jesus tells us that He will not let even one of His flock be lost. (Luke 15:4-5) Jesus also prophesies the return of Lucifer, the younger son who wasted his inheritance. (Luke 15:11-32) And the greatest sinner ever will be welcomed back with a great celebration.
Best wishes, Shawn
So will satan be saved? If so im not very fond of this idea then. Plus how did Jesus lost 1/3 of his flock? Do you mean the angels?
Yes, Jesus lost three of the seven spirits of God and ten of the twenty-four elders in the Fall, Adam and Eve being two of these ten. Jesus’ mission was for the restoration of all things. This mission is incomplete until all are returned, including the fallen Lucifer.
Best wishes, Shawn
Ive never heard about those elders and spirits .
If satan is saved then im out. I cannot accept that. And it isnt what revelation is telling us
Mr Murphy, greetings. I hope you are well. It’s still freezing at night in Michigan. I wonder how warm it is in Switzerland.
I’m afraid I can’t agree with you here. I think that there is a good argument for justice for all, even those who haven’t heard (otherwise would God be even good?), but please provide Scripture to back up things, such as your clams about Lucifer even being the same as Satan; 1/3 fo the flock; and why you think a parable of the prodigal is a prophecy.
Thanks. Keep warm.
Dear Randy,
I have provided the scripture in the link above with my paper and Edward Moore’s papers on the Apokatastasis. The theory comes from the most prolific biblical scholar.
Best wishes, Shawn
@NickolaosPappas, don’t get lost in the thickets with Shawn and his preoccupations with details about alleged angelic and demonic intrigue. He goes far beyond what the Bible says about any of that. It is all quite a mix of some truth with … well … ‘other stuff’; which in any case, has no bearing on what we are taught about how to live and serve God here and now.
Dear Mervin,
This question is about the unorthodox doctrine of universalism. All I am doing is explaining this for the uninformed. Orthodoxy offers no redemption for the fallen angels, and this is why there is no teaching of the spirits of God, but does not mean they do not exists as Revelation 4 describes.
Best wishes, Shawn
You just contradicted yourself
So please correct me, what does orthodoxy say about the redemption of the fallen angels?
That has nothing to do with you contradicring yourself. You said
Then
I did not contradict myself. I said I was presenting an unorthodox doctrine.
How though? You just said that the orthodox teaching(assuming you didn’t talk about the specific eastern orthodox teaching ) said this. Previously you claimed that your view offers a redemption for satan. So how is your view rothodox if it doesnt agree with the orthodox teaching?
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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