There are other verses too. Also is Enoch in the bible? From what i know the Book Of Enoch or the book of watchers is extra biblical stuff which again we dont know their datings neither the chronological time of the events that happened. of these books… An example whould be that Jesus interesting enough never mentions the watchers as the book states . Plus if you believe that these watchers helped the mankind attain “knowledge” about craftsmanship and building weapons it somewhat goes against the concept of evolution
Then we must do better mustn’t we? They know nothing of Paradise but what we give. Jam tomorrow is an English idiom.
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We cant unfortunately. They are in the hands of evil people and we cant change that. God will however
Enoch was believed to have been transported physically to Heaven… not actually dying.
I do not endorse the legends or myths of the Watchers.
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.well i can see that. So theres a refernce to heaven . And we know heaven its the place where God dwells. So by logic doesnt us humans go back to whom create us when we die? I think its implied here
Through us.
Well how exactly? Will you convince the people that take advantage of them for a hole bunch of reasons to just stop? Or by sending money to organizations and hoping they dont keep it for themselves but actually give it to the children? Unless you are willing to go there yourself unfortunately we cant do nothing
Yes, with some provisions:
[1] When exactly did Enoch start to be seen as still being alive?
[2] Why is Samuel brought UP from the Earth, while Enoch’s destination is some place above the Earth?
[3] The whole notion of a “Paradise” is something that possibly dates Genesis as one of the more recent books (providing the ultimate back-story), rather than one of the oldest.
I dont quite catch that. So at some point Enoch was seeing as dead?
Maybe he was sent in hell?
How is genesis the most recent book and how exactly does this happening?
Check this ou. Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says. I think its a serious issue(topic) though and you should make a thread about it so other people can engage.
As Dr. King said, the arc of the moral universe is long. But it tends toward justice. We can vote. And we can buy. Responsibly. We, as individuals. And we can teach our young. And we can support coherent, cost effective measures through our churches and charities. Acting in our communities on out. The only finger that God will ever lift is through me, you lifting mine, yours.
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Recently I too have attempted to soften the scars from the terror of Sunday school lessons about hell and damnation. I can’t say I’ve resolved it all, but I did achieve “confusion on a higher plane” from the following sources:
- David Bentley Hart’s That All Shall Be Saved: Heaven, Hell & Universal Salvation (9/2019): it’s very informative but too long and a little too strident. A quicker synopsis of Hart’s views can be found in his NYTimes 1/2020 editorial:
Opinion | Why Do People Believe in Hell? - The New York Times
2). A review of Hart’s book by Wyatt Houtz in his PostBarthian Blog: https://postbarthian.com/2019/10/17/review-that-all-shall-be-saved-by-david-bentley-hart/: good insight and also references to explore Wright and Karl Barth’s views on this subject
3). Rob Bell and a New American Christianity by James K. Wellman Jr.
- Ted Peter’s observations on unive r salism in chapter 11 p348-358 of his book God-The Word’s Future.
All this plus a generous exposure to modern secular (e.g. scientific) views about free will, justice and responsibility have left me resolved that while I’ll remain looking at this subject though a “glass darkly” till the “new creation”, I can lean more firmly in a statement my long-time pastor made about this” We should trust God’s love much more than fear his judgement.”
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@Mervin_Bitikofer, @Randy, saw you pinged me…
“Fern-seed and elephants” is indeed one of my all-time favorite Lewis articles/lectures… where Lewis really tears apart the position of the typical liberal New Testament critics of his day… and is just as relevant now as it was then. Pointing out that many of their very erudite-sounding ideas that sound so scholarly are largely just a chimera, and to some extent a lot of scholars congratulating each other on wise-sounding, but essentially vapid arguments. I haven’t been following the current discussion, but that lecture of his doesn’t deal much with universalism, but it may apply in the sense that lots of scholars like to claim that Christianity “obviously” inherited such and such belief from so-and-so previous belief or other culture or influence, or the like.
He has a great illustration in “Fern seed” where he notices that Liberal biblical scholars are quick to assume, and build all sorts of theories, on the assumption that writer “A” clearly borrowed or was influenced by writer “B” or belief “C” or the like… and he points out that, even in his own day, within his own culture, contemporary critics can’t even get these things right… what makes us trust biblical critics examining data from entirely outside their own culture, without any real clues or hard data, if people can’t even get this process right when examining works within their own culture and experience
Anyway, he has a great illustration where he points out that many people assumed and wrote or claimed that his Narnia stories either influenced, or were influenced by, the stories of his friend Roger Lancelyn Green: he writes: “ nothing could be more probable. i have an imaginary country with a beneficent lion in it; Green, one with a beneficent tiger. Green and i can be proved to read one another’s works; to be indeed in various ways closely associated. the case for an affiliation is far stronger than many which we accept as conclusive when dead authors are concerned. But it’s all untrue nevertheless. i know the genesis of that tiger and that lion and they are quite independent.”
But don’t get me started on Lewis… I will say that “fern-seed” is probably in my top 5 essays of Lewis. Absolutely worth anyone reading who is interested in reasonable thinking about developments in theology or Scripture.
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Relatively easy to find a link to the article, here’s one I found…
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This text is usually enough to believe he was dead:
Genesis 5:24 “And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”
SAMUEL
So… that’s your best guess on Samuel being risen up from the ground?
There are plenty of OTHER reasons to consider - - like the possibility that story components come from different phases of the development of Judaism.
.
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GENESIS - NEWEST OF BOOKS?
Well, this is one approach:
[1] the stories of David and Saul discuss the 12 tribes
[2] Deuteronomy: provides a back-story that starts in the middle of the
wilderness and discusses the 12 tribes
[3] Exodus: provides a back-story for the 12 tribes that starts in Egypt
and takes us to the wilderness.
[4] Genesis: provides the ultimate back-story by describing the
unlikely event of 12 sons making 12 tribes.
Thanks for sharing that essay, Daniel - It’s been a long enough time since I last read it, that I didn’t even recognize the title when you brought it up. It certainly bears multiple readings, and it is a good reminder to all of us of our humble estate when it comes to recognizing and attributing motivations to others, even among our contemporaries much less across chasms of time and geography. I am being reminded in another thread about how expertise really only goes so far … and this reminder dovetails with that message.
Mr Fisher,
Thank you for your note, and your expert summary! I was hoping you would comment. I have read the comment by Lewis on the Narnia books before–and thought it was very helpful. I hope you are well.
Sincerely,
Randy
There’s no comparison between contemporary individual writers and serial and parallel cultures. The contribution of the Egyptian Book of the Dead to Middle Eastern and European beliefs cannot possibly be overstated.
I am a novice at this but isn’t it more likely that this was a symptom of a range of beliefs rather than the source? They didn’t have tracts in those days 
They had priesthoods, merchants, envoys. These cultures were connected.
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