No, I did not. I cited it as an example of what our hearts should desire, like Paul’s.
You have zero basis for the claim that he is speaking about his past. You are merely projecting your confirmation bias onto scripture. He is speaking in the present tense. You had better reread Romans 7:21-25 and be knocked off your high horse! Pay especial attention to verse 23.
Backatcha.
You must have pretended that this wasn’t there:
Guess what else. It is also in the present tense, the implication being that we, if we are not hostile to God, should submit to God’s law, because we can, since our hearts have been softened by the Spirit.
Pleease note the lowercase L, as distinct from the implicit uppercase of Mosaic Law. The laws of love, moral laws, were written on hearts before Mosaic Law (remember Cain?), even as they are today, without Mosaic Law. And we still disobey them.
I agree that the thread 03Cobra mentioned is worth an investigation; I like where the conversation ended (unfortunately the thread is now closed). Hoping to continue it briefly here for those interested. Note, I have repeated previously mentioned things for emphasis.
The conversation in the other thread ended with Scriptures being “a” word of God and Jesus being “the” word of God. This is clear in the Ancient Hebrew and Ancient Greek.
Here are example translations (Ancient Hebrew to English) from three of the major prophets:
וַיְהִי, דְּבַר -יְהוָה, אֶל-יְשַׁעְיָהוּ (Isaiah 38:4)
Literally: And-became [a] word-of-YHWH to-Yesha’eyahu
וַיְהִי דְבַר-יְהוָה אֵלַי (Jeremiah 1:11)
Literally: And-became [a] word-of-YHWH to-me (I.e. Jeremiah)
הָיָה דְבַר - יְהוָה אֶל-יְחֶזְקֵאל… (Ezekiel 1:3)
Literally: …became [a] word-of-YHWH to-Ye’chez’ke’l
I have not come across an example anywhere in the Scriptures pre-Jesus where the authors used the definite article “the” (I.e. “H” prefix in Ancient Hebrew) in conjunction with “davar” (translated as ‘word’ in English). I think this showed the author’s reverence for God in the sense that they did not want to limit God in any sense by claiming that the visions and prophecy that came to them from God were “the” final word of God.
It was not until the unique moment in history, when Jesus was on earth, when John (and we can assume other disciples) implicitly refer to a person, Jesus, being “the” word of God. This is clear in the Ancient Greek:
Καὶ ὁ Λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν
Literally: And the word became flesh and dwelt among us…
How could we then interpret the scriptures for our lifestyle? Interpret it like Timothy (as mentioned previously in this thread):
“All Scripture is God-inspired/breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
This appears to be how Paul and Peter used scripture in their meeting in Antioch (if you are looking for some guidance on application from the early church). They don’t “un-hitch the OT from the NT”, but rather use the OT along with newly revealed teaching from Jesus to instruct each other (I.e. is one informs the other, and vice-versa).
In Paul’s description of the church, the final authority is Jesus (because he perfectly loved God and his neighbours and thus exalted as “the” son of God as proven by his resurrection), who is the head of the church (as he taught that he is the way, the truth, and the life). Jesus’ operative in the world is the Holy Spirit, who breaths-in (ancient metaphor for inspires) those who accept Jesus as their master and saviour. The individual members of the church are a body moving under the direction of the Holy Spirit who inspires individuals as directed by Jesus (who does not speak anything that contradicts what his father has already spoken in the OT). Therefore, all christians need each other to interpret the word of God because Jesus is giving revelation (via the Holy Spirit) to each member of the church, this was the main point of Paul’s analogy in his teaching.
I don’t think a debate about old/new covenant or laws is healthy for the church, but rather framing the discussion on Jesus’ teachings of the kingdom of God and the citizen of the kingdom of God, and his examples of Godly lifestyle/actions/thoughts, as the foundation for us to understand the Torah/Mosaic Laws. Remember that Jesus himself said he came to fulfil the law, not abolish it; his time on earth was necessary for us to understand the proper context of the Torah (I.e. Godly lifestyle) in order for us not to be a slave to religion (I.e. traditions of men discussed between Jesus in the Pharisees recorded in Mark 7). A major part of Jesus’ ministry was about giving the truth, and “the truth will set [us] free [from the religions of the world]” - this is the good news, and this is why I leap for joy - because there is an alternative way to live than what is proposed by the world religions and governments that are burdensome on the soul.
Jesus’ gospel is the same back then as it is today, it is supposed to give us the truth that will allow us to see through the deceit and injustice of our present institutions and its leaders and followers, both religious and non-religious.
Paul makes this clear to the Ephesians that the struggle in the present age (including ours) is not against flesh and blood (like many christians believe, hence why we are so focused on making good-bad lists/rulebooks, and religious forms based on physical actions). He writes that the struggle in this present age is against the rulers (I.e. Caesar and other kings, but could be extended to current dictators), authorities (I.e. Roman government in this context, but could be extended to current governments and legal bodies), powers of this dark world (I.e. evil powers enacting injustices, such as unethical corporations), and spiritual forces of evil (the Book of Job could give us an indication of what these are, e.g. disease, famine, evil ideas/spirits, etc.).
Paul describes “truth” (I.e. what has been revealed throughout the scriptures and made clear by Jesus) as being the belt that holds together our metaphorical amour in the battle against the above. Religious action is secondary to truth because without truth; how do we know that we are not one of those that Jesus describes as “prophesying in his name, but never knew him?” A thought-provoking question I ask myself every day and one that requires continual Bible study (both OT and NT) and prayer.
Jesus decoupled the NT from the OT by arrogating it. It was His milieu, the basis of His fully enculturated humanity, He couldn’t NOT knowing who, what He was by His ancient epistemology that cannot work for post-Enlightenment minds.
That was a thoughtful post, Andrew. Thanks.
Since you went back to the original languages, I would like to mention that there is not an “is” in 2 Timothy 3:16 in Koine Greek, and the text doesn’t say “all scripture is inspired…,” rather “every inspired scripture…”
Autofill and autocorrect are my worst enemas.
@andrewt316, You are arguing for everything that Paul was arguing against. The Judaizers were saying that Jesus came to perfect the Law. They said that He made it possible for Gentiles to become Jews, to accept the Jewish covenant and become part of the Chosen People, so they needed to be circumcized and follow the Torah as Jesus Himself followed it.
Paul said No. He said that if the Gospel was the Law plus Jesus, then then in effect you have just the law without Jesus. Jesus is the Savior, Jesus is God, The Law does not save. The Law is not God. You are making the Law superior or prior to Jesus, just as the Pharisees said, which cannot be.
At the coming of the Man of Lawlessnes Paul said that there would be a rebellion against Jesus. This is what you are advocating. Please do not go this route. Flee those who advocate Legalism in all its forms.
@Relates I’m not too sure if I am? I am merely paraphrasing Jesus in the quote you referenced from my post.
By Judaizers, are you referring to Jesus himself, who said:
“…I have not come to abolish [the Law or the Prophets] but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.”
I think this is quite explicit what Jesus is saying to the apostles and surrounding crowd: there is a God-given standard, it has been given to Moses and the Prophets, and if we practice it and show others how to, then we will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. This is the basis for the apostles and early christians still practicing and showing how to live out the Torah to the new converts. This is how the apostles and early christians interpreted the metaphors of being the salt of the earth and light of the world: to show an alternative, holy lifestyle to their contemporaries - one that promoted justice and equality according to God, not according to Caesar or any other human person.
How else could we interpret the sermon on the mount?
Futhermore, I didn’t say that Jesus came to “perfect” the law, I said he came to “fulfill” the law (his words according to Matthew, not mine). By saying Jesus came to perfect the Law are you implying that his ministry on earth is the perfect example of acting out the law for all places, for all time? I don’t think this is the case, otherwise the model for the church would still be 1st century lifestyle. Thus, Jesus said he came to “fulfill” the law, as in, give its proper context, which he summarised as “love God and love your neighbour as yourself” (By the way he is just emphasising Exodus 20:3 and Leviticus 19:18 here, and many Jewish sages that came before him such as Hillel). He did this by being the “Sacrifical Lamb” and the “Suffering Servant” depicted by Isaiah, and was resurrected by God as a result. A unique and historical moment in time that has not been repeated since.
I can’t find an exact reference for your assertion above.
Only closest reference is in Acts 15, we read that there were people who were saying “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved”, and in Jerusalem where the apostles and elders were, there were Christian Pharisees saying “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” (Not as strong, but still imposing a requirement for Gentiles to be a “Christian” - this is more an identity thing).
I think we have to separate into three categories of Christians in this passage:
The people saying, “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved”. I think this would have been a minority who had distorted view of Christ; certainly, Paul, the other apostles, and elders in Jerusalem did not believe this - hence, Peter and James clarified this.
The Christian Pharisees, " The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses." I don’t think this group were promoting salvation by works, but rather imposing their religious model on other Christians - remember their background is the Pharisaic interpretation of the law of Moses; every early Christian had their imperfect understanding of the Torah/word of God (even Peter, James, Paul and Barnabas), hence needed each other to instruct, rebuke, correct and train one another, as I think they are all doing here in the account by the author of Acts. Again, I am emphasising my point about how Timothy is encouraging us to use the scriptures.
Peter, James and the other Christian elders are not saying, “Don’t practice the Mosaic Law.” I think proponents of “unhitching the OT from the NT” often add this into the NT, when it doesn’t mention this at all. Rather, they are saying, circumcision and practicing the Mosaic Law is not a requirement for salvation or being a Christian. Although, I didn’t explicitly state in my previous post, I was hoping readers would get the implicit meaning from reading Acts, Galatians and Matthew (otherwise we’d be quoting the Bible all day…) and focus on the main point of my post, which is Jesus’ gospel, death and resurrection frees us from religion so we can better focus on understanding God as a person as Abraham did; I’ve clarified it in this post to avoid confusion and pointless argument.
Also, we have to take note that James (showing compassion he learnt from Jesus regarding following the Mosaic Law) instructed that the Gentiles did not need to follow the relatively larger requirements of the Mosaic Law (because they did not come from hundreds of years of understanding, remembering and practicing them and would thus fail frequently). But, this did not mean that there was no standard, James still instructed: " Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
Why this standard? It is entirely contextual (thus not applicable today). The pagans at that time used these acts as worship to other gods; hence, they broke the most important commandment to love God. We can take this principle and ask ourselves in the 21st century: “What cultural practices are causing us to worship gods, other than the one true God?”
Paul did not deny James in setting a standard for the Gentiles. Nor, did he reject those who chose to practice all the Mosaic Law. We have to understand the context of Paul’s ministry; he was presenting the bare minimum to become a Christian in order to make it accessible to the entire world. Both James’ “faith without works is dead” and Paul’s “salvation by grace through faith” are two sides of the same coin. I think a lot of Christians misinterpret Paul by implying just because he didn’t explicitly say, “follow the Torah” that he advocated for the “abolishment of the Torah” (otherwise this is not congruent with Jesus, the Prophets and Moses). I encourage us as Christians to read Paul in conjunction with the other apostles to understand the proper context of ministry during that time period.
Also, I recommend a book called “True Spirituality” by the late Francis Schaffer, it explores the above (I.e. reconciliation of “faith without works is dead” and “salvation by grace through faith”, the two sides of the same coin [I.e. Godly lifestyle] in the 20th century, but still not to distant to glean insights for the 21st century.
I agree with you here. Not sure which part of my previous post made you think otherwise. Feel free to directly quote the specific part in my previous post and I can clarify.
Not sure how I am making the law superior to Jesus? Certainly, Jesus viewed himself as above the law by claiming he was lord of the sabbath. This is implicitly proven through his exaltation and resurrection by God. Letter to Hebrews also clarifies this (including Jesus’ superiority to Angels, as in messengers from God, Moses, High Priests) to those believing that he is beneath the law.
Again, please quote and I can clarify.
Again, I feel like you may be skim-reading my post? Where exactly in my previous post do I advocate rebellion against Jesus and Legalism? I meant quite the opposite, so please let me know and I can clarify.
@Relates apologies, my convoluted writing style may have blurred the intent of my post; I think we are in agree-ance on a lot of points. This is something I am working on; I get misinterpreted quite a lot both in verbal and written form.
Thanks for the clarification Vance, I haven’t studied Greek before so wasn’t aware. But, even basic understanding of the ancient languages has made studying the bible interesting, and helped clarify certain assumptions I had about what the ancient believers actually meant.
Hope we can evoke more learning and discussion of translational nuances and issues.
Certainly, a nuance there in 2 Timothy 3:16 in Koine Greek you posted that is worth thinking about.
I think the ASV is a better translation, but even it inserts an “is” not in the Greek:
14 But abide thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; and that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. Every scripture inspired of God is (inserted) also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness: that the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.
A friend of mine who has been reading Koine Greek for 40 years and studied at Princeton seminary translates it more like this:
But abide thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; and that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus: every scripture inspired of God, profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness: that the
man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.
The God given standard which had been given to Moses and the Prophets is the Torah, or the first five books of the Bible. Now if I understand you right, you are not saying that God’s given standard does not include the dietary requirements, stoning of adulterers and adulteresses, cleanliness rules, etc. In other words you take what the Jews believe to be God’s standard and convert it to what American Evangelicals believe is true. On what authority do you do this?
Are we preaching salvation and ethics? What you are asking is how do we teach people to act right. On the other hand Paul and Jesus taught about salvation, how to be right with God.
Jesus and Paul taught that we CANNOT be right with God by trying to follow God’s Law. They taught that we can be right with God by repenting from our old ways of trying to please God, accepting the forgiveness that only Jesus can give, and following Jesus, which does not mean living in a first century lifestyle. .
We do not like right because we want to be saved. We want to live right because we are saved. We cannot be saved by living right. We are saved by being right with God through the Holy Spirit, which has no place in OT as does Jesus.
Paul told us how to get right with God: we must die on the Cross with Him, so we can live after the Resurrection with Him. There is nothing about following God’s Commandments.
I recommend the writings of his son Frank, who sees through the errors of his father’s thought. If Jesus had come to establish a Christian Nation, He would not have died on the Cross, but led His disciples and the angels in battle against the Romans to take over their Empire. I am sure that Paul was a much better interpreter of God’s will than Francis A. Schaffer
What is sin?
Sin is in wrong relationship to God and other people. See Gen. 3
How do you know what a wrong relationship is? (There was disobedience in Genesis 3. Disobedience to what? It wasn’t Mosaic Law.)
Look to Jesus!
That’s very nice. Tell me about Jesus and Genesis 3.
Franky (whom my wife knew when she was at L’Abri one summer) calls himself, last I heard, a ‘Christian atheist’. Clever juxtaposition of terms. I left a comment on an article he wrote a few years back: Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay– Deal With It
I don’t suppose you could articulate those errors?
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@Relates I am not taking what the Jews believe to be God’s standard and converting it to what American Evangelicals believe is true. Every individual has the freedom to believe whatever they believe.
Note: I have no authority, I have the same corrupted mind as you do…all I am doing is presenting the facts from what is accessible to us in the 21st century (I.e. Jesus’ sayings from Matthew’s gospel) and giving my understanding; do with it as you wish. Can we please keep to the ideas presented instead of making personal assumptions of my motives (like it says in the forum guidelines).
Now that is clarified…
From speaking to Jewish friends, the Torah is not just the first five books of the Bible (unless you are a super orthodox Jew). It simply means instruction, guidance, or teaching (from followers of YHWH/Elohim the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob). The English translation to Law was (in my opinion) a deliberate choice of the Pharisees (and other rabbinical traditions), Roman Catholic Church and Church of England to create an evil doctrine of control and fear, which may be what you think when I mention the Torah? I mean quite the opposite; the purpose of the Torah is to give guidance to the current and future generations on living a godly lifestyle; it is not meant to be revealed via a sermon in a synagogue or church service, it is revealed in the lifestyle of those who follow the ideas and principles of God (I.e. the “Davar”, which has a much more expansive meaning than just “word” as it is often translated): this is why James writes to the early Christians “faith without works is dead”, if we have faith, but are merely working (I.e. acting) by our own ideas and principles, we have broken the first and foremost instruction from God: have no other gods before me, this is the first and foremost sin that humanity has done as explained by Moses in Genesis 3 (I agree with @Dale read this for an understanding of sin, Adam and Eve believed in God, but acted contrary to what he instructed) we became gods in place of the one true God. The consequence of this is death (I.e. we will never find true life, true spirituality, true peace, true joy - unless we submit in humility to God and stop making our own rules and enforcing them on others - in place of God’s).
This is the whole purpose of Moses instructions to the Israelites: do not worship the so called “sons of god” (I.e. kings of the surrounding cultures) and their anthropomorphic figurines, statues, pillars and wall carvings (who were really just tools for the wisemen, witches, priests and false prophets to have sovereignty over people and enforce their own rules on ancient society - this has led to all the things wrong in the world today as Paul writes to the Romans in chapter 8).
Moses (having revelation from God) gave a sovereign (I.e. God-given) list of instructions to the Israelites (I emphasise to the Israelites only) to help separate themselves from the surrounding cultures, but first and foremost to lower themselves under the Creator (I.e. stop them making their own unjust rules - read Exodus 18 for context as to why God gave rigid rules for Israelites). This was applicable for that time period to make the children of God distinguishable from the rest of the cultures and improved fairness and equality for that time period only. If that was the perfect way to live, then Jesus did not have to come. So, Jesus came and rebuked the “Teachers of the Law” on their ethical system because it was corrupted like the religions of the surrounding cultures and took advantage of the sick, poor, foreigner and widowers (social outcasts); and he introduces the dynamic Holy Spirit to all individuals not just the prophets, who is supposed to guide us to the “truth” and the “truth will set us free” from the static law (I.e. Pharisee interpretation of the Torah) and he removed the penalty of sin by his cruxificion, death and resurrection (praise the lord our God for his ingenuity!). This is **very personal ** look at the lives of Peter, James and Paul, all three studied and lived out the Torah, and encountered Jesus, but all three lived completely different lives and interacted with completely different contexts, but all were unified with their thinking and guidelines to early Christians! This was achieved through the dynamism of the person of the Holy Spirit.
I think we forget that God is a person, not an ethical system (like humanist and secular society are trying to reduce him to). You cannot program a “god”, sentient Artificial Intelligence system based on the 5 books of Moses (or any other text) to run our society. God speaks to individuals personally and inspires them to act in unique ways (if we read the Bible in this way, it will set us free from religion). Hence, his word is living (not dead like the Law makes it to be) as the author of Hebrews describes (and they were writing to a Jewish audience, the Jews for thousands of years have always believed this, it was just one “sect” of Judaism that though to create a religion). We have to be careful to assume that all Jews follow the teachings of the Pharisees; this is what caused anti-semitism by Martin Luther and other protestants. The Jews were never trying to evangelise or enforce a way to living a godly lifestyle, merely providing the results from how they’ve experimented with the God-given standard, from one generation to the next. Certainly, the Zionist Jews who have political power in Israel at the moment do not represent the majority views of Israelis (according to my wife who has been to Israel and our Jewish friends who have lived there).
Therefore, the Torah is much more expansive and dynamic than we think. Certainly, Jesus and the apostles were not so rigid with it as evidenced in the debate in Jerusalem over circumcision and Mosaic “Instruction” I mentioned before (from Acts). Let’s also speak specifically about the examples you give of “stoning adulterers” and “dietary requirements”, Jesus and the apostles did not practice this as evidenced in the gospels and Acts. It was the Pharisees who turned the Torah into a “Law”, whereas Jesus and the apostles treated it as guidelines and applied it differently in different contexts, and showed that even the Pharisees themselves could not follow their Law. First and foremost, we forget that compassion and mercy are more frequently instructed in the 5 books over the death penalty; it was the judges that enforced the death penalty at their imperfect discretion instead of leaving it to God to enact judgement and justice. The danger of the death penalty is that no one person (except God) can know the motives of a person, and have all the evidence, hence there is risk of killing an innocent (or not entirely guilty) person: this is why previous Christians lobbied to get rid of the death penalty and it has saved many innocent lives.
The majority of instructions in the 5 books of Moses relate to taking care (and working towards freedom) of slaves, taking care and integrating the foreigner into Israelite society, looking after the poor, sick and widowers.
The theme of compassion and mercy continues and is prevalent throughout all the prophets. They all spoke out against the unjust hierarchal structures that the kings and priests of Israel and Judea were creating that benefited the religious and wealthy elite, and disadvantaged the social outcasts. They criticised their interpretation of the Torah and the religious, political and legal systems that they created.
The written Torah, which most Christians would be familiar with as Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. These are highly contextual to their time period (I.e. The time of Moses, Joshua and the Judges) - hence I emphasised above in this post that it was only for the Israelites. From what we see in the NT writings, Jesus, the apostles and early Christians did not use these books like the Pharisees and “Teachers of the Law” were using it (I.e. making ridiculous, unfulfillable rules from their interpretations); but rather using the ideas and principles to inspire them to think and act differently in their current context (I.e. 1st century Roman Empire). In the NT we see Jesus and the apostles making new interpretation of scripture and applying it to their day. This is what Timothy was encouraging the early Christians to do (and by extension, us today in the 21st century). Because we live by the spirit (I.e. the Holy Spirit from God); as did the OT believers:
One example (of numerous) is Isaiah 61:1, where the spirit of the Lord comes upon Isaiah. We have that same spirit in our present age, there is no reason to believe why the spirit coming down on the early Christians during the Pentecost event recording in Acts, is the last time the spirit chose to work in humanity.
Think of the Torah this way: people have had the spirit of God come upon them and guide them for thousands of years. They experimented with the ideas that the spirit revealed to them and lived according to those principles. The results have been recorded in some tablets and papyrus scrolls, and also passed on orally. Some good things were done, and some bad things were done. We have a choice today in the 21st century to learn from the mistakes of our predecessors, interpret and understand these ideas in the modern context, and further the Torah (I.e. instruction on Godly lifestyle) for the current and future generations.
Most catholic and protestant traditions don’t see the Torah this way and hence are stuck in archaic religious forms and rules. What I am seeing in the South East Asian churches is a more dynamic Torah and living out of scripture. Yes, there is more freedom, but there are still observable principles and ideas that are common in what is being preached and lived out. There is more substance and content than just: I am saved, let’s just meditate on Jesus and wait until we die. These people truly believe what is presented in the Bible (both OT and NT), and are inspired to live a certain, alternative way as a result, and people are coming to the faith daily, monthly, yearly - there is revival in the Asian and South American churches.
In terms of this conversation, we could go in this direction (I.e. what exactly is the Torah and what does it mean in the 21st century context) with this thread, but I feel it may be too specific for the topic of “unhitching the OT from the NT”: might be worth another thread?
I hope this lengthy post clarifies what I mean by “Torah” and “God-given standard”. I just use it because Jesus and the apostles refer to it, I can use another word in my post if it makes it easier? Not to sure what would be familiar to you and others, that is all.
@Relates thought I’d seperate the lengthy posts in order to make them more readable.
Sorry, about more choice of words. I don’t mean “teach people to act right”, I did not use the word teach. I mean this:
I study the Bible, I get inspired by the ideas to make certain life choices and daily, moment-by-moment decisions. If a colleague, family member, friend (or even a stranger) asks me why I do what I do, I have a conversation with them why I do what I do.
Likewise, I might get inspired by another Christian and find out more about why they do what they do, and apply that in my life.
In other instances, I get a stern correction or rebuke from my wife, family member or other person and later come to realise my sin, which helps me pray and repent.
I don’t see this as being “teaching people to act right” as in a Sunday school or sermon, but rather in our every day interactions, the Holy Spirit is working in those who follow God and we all help each other and inspire each other to live a more godly lifestyle, in the process we help to rectify the injustices in our society just like the early Christians (e.g. I can influence through my instructions and standards to my co-workers and team to treat contractors and other employees more fairly and with dignity).
Furthermore, Paul and Jesus did not just teach about salvation, but also the godly lifestyle. They made certain claims on what is a good way to live and a bad way to live just like the ancients who wrote the wisdom literature (e.g. Proverbs). If they only taught about salvation, how do we learn how to live after we are born again? Salvation is the first step, but surely we need some guidance on how to grow up in Christ? In fact, the whole purpose of Paul’s letters was to rebuke and correct both Jew and Gentile on certain practices of their day, and also inspire new standards for godly lifestyle (e.g. using spiritual gifts, and other behaviours in the church) - otherwise Jesus’ teaching on salvation and the kingdom of God would be enough.
Again, I think you are misinterpreting me regarding my belief on salvation. I’ve tried to clarify previously to no avail it seems, so I’ll explicitly state it here to hopefully move the conversation onwards…
A person is saved through faith in God’s promises and the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and this alone - period.
To help us as Christians live a godly lifestyle in line with the standard of the kingdom of God revealed by Jesus, the prophets and Moses; we have thousands of years of written and oral texts and traditions that we can read and discuss. In the process, the Holy Spirit will guide and unify the Church of each day/age to deny ourselves and old ways, and live in a corrupted world, as foreigners/alines, people not of this world (I.e. people of God, a heavenly standard) in search of the kingdom of heaven on earth (as Jesus teaches us to pray, may God’s will be done in heaven and on earth).
@Relates you say something interesting here:
“We are saved by being right with God through the Holy Spirit, which has no place in OT as does Jesus”
Do you mean that the Holy Spirit was not working during the times recorded in the OT? How do you interpret the “ruach” (I.e. spirit) of God referenced multiple times in the OT?
See examples: Strong's Hebrew: 7307. ר֫וּחַ (ruach) -- breath, wind, spirit (note: not all examples related to God, but just copied and pasted the search results from Biblehub to save time).
You also mention Jesus not having a place in the OT? What about the numerous prophecies relating to the Messiah?
Again, there is danger in unhitching the NT, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit from the OT. This is not what the Apostles, and the early Christians did. To unhitch the OT from the NT, is to erase the historical and spiritual context of Jesus’ ministry on earth.
I agree with you on your reference to Paul’s teaching on the godly lifestyle. To die on the cross daily is a daily prayer and acknowledgement that God has sovereignty, not us - thus we fulfil the instruction to have no other gods (chiefly, ourselves) above YHWH. A key feature of those in the kingdom of God/Heaven is a “poor spirit” as Jesus teaches.
The question then arises: How do we know that we’ve died on the cross? I.e. how do we know we are repenting, unless there is some kind of standard to know we are sinning? I’m curious in your rejection in following God’s commandment, how do you propose a person is to practically, take up their cross daily. Is it merely a “I’m sorry God” and move on? How is a person to know what to be sorry for? Whatever society deems is socially acceptable?
Apologies, not trying to be condescending (hard to convey my spirit in a post), I ask the questions in sincerity. I’ve asked myself these questions before in my walk with Christ, and Bible study (both personally and with other believers) has lead me to the conclusions throughout my posts. This is because I started my life as a Christian with very little substance and content to my belief (I was like the rocky ground in Jesus’ parable); I didn’t really know what I was sorry for (just a feeling of remorse and at a Christian Youth Event that preached about God’s love and offered a “prayer of salvation” that didn’t specify what the “wrong” that I was apologising for was) and hence my ungodly pattern of behaviour did not change until proper Bible Study (both OT and NT) in my mid-twenties when I started to see clearer what I needed to repent of.
@Relates I agree with Dale, I’d be interested in seeing what these errors were. Thanks for the recommendation, I admit I am not familiar with Frank’s writings, but will have a read when I have time (I have a long reading list).
@Dale I think give @Relates an opportunity to define sin. We may be in agree-ance, or we may not, hard to say unless @Relates clarifies. For the most part, I agree with his idea of salvation by grace through faith, but I kind of want to move on from this, as it is not what is being discussed here (I.e. unhitching the OT from the NT).
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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