A primordial form of intentionality distributed everywhere. That’s one way to say it. The remark about the master watchmaker is what drew me back here after reading the paragraph from Bill’s book:
“… We need to acknowledge the fact that there was neither a single line of evolution nor a simple progression of complexity and efficiency of organisms, that there were ups and downs and even extinctions…”
Something about the complexity in those statements stood out for me. And yet the philosophy (or faith) of a child can see it so much more easily:
“But Daddy,” Sarah insisted, “it can’t go on and on like that forever; the only thing that goes on and on like that is numbers!”
While my memory is also the pits, it does hold some moments well. Sitting in Draper’s class and hearing about Hilbert’s Hotel, my intuition was that infinity is a non-numerical value. I shared it in class, and have worked with it in forums like this since then.
3 possible statements, and one has been determined by me and you to be metaphysically impossible. The other 2 are whether the universe comes from nothing or an uncaused cause.
Phenomenologically, how appropriate would it be to identify an uncaused cause that is unaware of its action as Heidegger’s nothing?
Whatever you make of an infinite regress of causes, it’s hard to imagine an infinite regress of cats.
XD
“I don’t like to talk about this,” he said.
“Why?”
“Because God would find it insulting—if he’s real.”
Wonderful.
And that last line. Pow. It brought me to tears.
And then I thought (as I’m sure Maggie and George Müller would as well), if I’m dreaming about God (as the godless imply) and his very cool activity in my life (including in some difficult parts), then I don’t want to wake up.
I was going for a characterization that communicated something of what turns me away. I definitely don’t think it is grounds for persuading anyone else to think the same way about it. It would be nice if what knows and helps us turned out to be all knowing, all powerful and the originator of everything but my hunch is that may be wishful thinking. My hunches aren’t always right but those are my defaults lacking corrective insight. But that has eluded me.
If there was a being whose desires and intentions were responsible for all we see I would want it to be as you conceive Him. What holds me back isn’t that I suspect He’d be worse than you imagine Him. I suppose my inclination to see everything through a natural lens is probably what stops me. When I think about the ways in which something more manifests in our experience as subjects I look to place what it is in the natural world. I don’t feel there is any reason everyone should share that inclination but it just is mine, for better or worse.
As I’ve already said, what I think gives rise to God belief is something real and important on experiential grounds which nonetheless do not lend themselves to persuasive argument. Since I agree with that you that what it is makes a difference in the quality of our experience, I’m inclined to think the best beliefs are the ones that put you in a satisfactory relationship to this elusive something more regardless of what it may turn out to be. If you can believe it is the creator of everything and that gets you there, perfect. Since I can’t believe that but can believe it is a constituent of consciousness, that will have to do.
Not when you get to know him. [Sorry, I just realized I took that out of context.]
The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it.
It’s not the arguments’ faults (especially the ones based on objective facts) because you have pre-persuaded yourself, finding, in your own words, any consideration of the supernatural “odious.”
Mark, thanks so much for this discussion. It’s been good to learn to understand your thinking a bit better. I appreciate your clarity of thought and your honesty. Your decency and patience have made it possible to carry on a unique-to-me conversation. You ask good questions and make good points. Thanks!
Spent some time with Plato (that is www.plato.stanford.edu) today, scratching the surface of essays on phenomenology and intentionality. Actually, I got to intentionality as background for the essay I had started with on Consciousness. Very easy to forget what the original path was I had intended to pursue.
Mostly they were reminders (because I didn’t have the time they required during the time that was available to read with the needed concentration) why I enjoyed reading Marxist critical theory the most — Terry Eagleton writes like a newspaper man, deceptively non-technical sounding. Whatever the content is, I find the writing penetrable. This was a good reminder that on my dresser for quite some time waits How to Read Donald Duck: imperialist ideology in the Disney comic (Ariel Dorfman And Armand Mattelart How To Read Donald Duck ( 3rd Ed.) ( 1992) 1 : Dorfman : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive). I need to pick it back up and finally finish it. I found it perceptive and valuable critique.
Good, I’m glad you liked it. As I was watching and telling a guy at work about it, we had a good laugh that the first question from the audience was whether he saw anything.
For the skeptic, there is never enough second hand evidence, it’s when they begin to experience the work of the Spirit for themselves and are still skeptical, that…
I have come to really appreciate how the “therefore know for certain” of Acts 2:36 follows eyewitness testimony for the resurrection and a self-evident work of the Spirit.
[How do you know your wife’s prayer is what “brought you back to life”? You’d have to first rule out every other possible explanation. Also, it’s odd that you would take this rare occurrence as evidence for god. However, it’s more common for family members to pray for a dead loved one and nothing happens. Why is it that when prayer obviously doesn’t work it’s because “god works in mysterious ways”. And then whenever there’s a rare correlation between prayer and someone getting better, that’s all of a sudden evidence for god. Come on.]
I feel this comment here does raise some good questions and that it should be adressed, of course i am no good in the theology department but the commentor does seem to have a point about how when prayer “works” we attribute it to God nevermind the doctors and nurses and when it doesn’t work we just get told that it’s just apart of Gods plan etc. Personally i cant think of an answer to this.
Does a father give his children presents every day, or a mom accede to a child’s every demand for a toy while shopping. God himself is his own best gift.
Merv, thank you for the recommendation. I just downloaded it from Bookshare. Looking a bit at Rohr’s Wikipedia page and reception by Doug Groothuis and Erwin Lutzer, I understand what you mean about heresy hunters. After having read Groothuis’s Truth Decay 20ish years ago, his response doesn’t surprise me at all.
Being aware of my own mildly allergic responses to Richard Foster’s and Calvin Miller’s books on spiritual practice, I am interested to read Rohr. At the same time, I consider myself an intellectual1-scavenger, taking from whatever place I land. Just haven’t been here before.
1 I am using that term very loosely, and in the sense of development, rather than state.
Kevin, I approach these kinds of testimonies with similar reservations. There are so many charlatans out there, and even an honest person can be misled by subjective interpretations. A girlfriend of mine has deep, beautiful faith in Jesus and a far closer relationship with him than I do. She often ascribes things to answered specific prayer, that I would see as part of the bigger picture in the life of faith. Jesus told us to pray and that prayers uttered in faith would be answered. How it all works, though, is beyond me.
In 1996 my 16 year old cousin died of brain injuries from a car accident she caused. The psychological destruction that this did to her parents, who are Christians, was/is huge and permanent. I know they and everyone they knew prayed. The answer was devastating.
In 2012 my oldest child (then 10) was diagnosed with a massive brain tumor next to her brain stem. Just from the surgery there was a lot of neurological damage, and her main recovery took about 2 years. We have continued to see improvement, though, even since then. She’s about to finish her sophomore year in college, where she’s focusing on neuroscience. Our church and our families prayed and supported us in innumerable ways. Do I claim some sort of victory here? In light of my experience, what would that say about my cousins’? No. I refuse to interpret.
I have heard more than enough sermons on learning from our suffering and praying in faith, etc. I much prefer Michael Horton’s analysis that we CANNOT know what God’s plan is beyond what is explicitly told to us in Scripture, and that that is enough for now. Job wasn’t told to learn from his pain. He was reminded of God’s all powerful abilities to bring order from chaos, even to enforce order into chaos. Job was told he couldn’t understand God’s purposes and reminded of his powerlessness.
While I’m willing to take God at his word, I’m just not always sure about other people.
Good questions. It used to be more important to me because I was told that it was supposed to be important.
I have evolved (or been progressively created) from a #1 position to a #4 position.
I agree with you that the resurrection is or should be more central than creation. Creation doesn’t necessarily guarantee Jesus—a lot of religions have creation stories but not Jesus. But I also do think that God’s existence is “essential to the story” and that he is not some kind of epiphenomenon of the universe.
That is very well said. Right now I am savoring the final chapters of Keener’s book. It has been a great journey for me. Remembering times when I saw God answer prayer in remarkable ways, and as you say that is not always the case. Keener’s analysis of why this sometimes happens and why it doesn’t was refreshingly sincere, as I most often find him, and biblically informed.
What he said about how God’s work can often be a preparation for trials to come, was insightful, and his historical analysis of how great revivals have preceded global conflicts is new to me. I think I will have to research that a little further.
Yeah, i get that, 1 week before my mom died she had unbelievable confidence and an unshakable faith that there is without a doubt a loving God and that she will be with him in heaven. I remember in the closing of her final days she seemed at peace, after fighting all the pain she seemed ready for it to be over with and content as to where she was going. Granted she became christian long before when she quit drinking and said that God is what changed her for the better. I dont know if it was God or not but either way she changed for the better, she was happier, more kind and more positive, all be it she was still hard headed but that runs in the family. What led to her downfall was cancer that she got from smoking cigarettes since she was 12 years old.
This is the note she left me and my brothers with the night before she died, each one was adressed to use by our names but the message was the same:
I personally dont know if there is a God or not for i don’t know but i am not quick to attribute the unknown to God, i imagine that takes time and careful thinking to even consider it, i just haven’t found an answer yet. I hope i do so i can continue living life here while i still have it, if there is one thing i am grateful for it is that mom got to spend her remaining days with us at home.
It is difficult losing a parent, no matter the circumstances. With time, I reflect on the good times with my Mom, but still the memory of her death is sharp and painful. I think God holds us in judgement only for what we have been revealed, and pray for peace and healing in your loss.
