Trying to understand hell and who belongs there (very personal issues I face)

Faith & Science Conversation
101

The earliest disciples didn’t use the Gospels to learn about Jesus. If they weren’t eyewitnesses then they relied on eyewitness preaching and testimony and the Holy Sprit and transforming and arisen Jesus did the rest. The Gospels were written ca. 70-100CE. Paul had already converted all sorts of people without a written canonical Gospel. And later on, anyone who used Mark or John or learned about Jesus from them may have had no idea of the virgin birth. Whole streams of thought in the NT and early second century evince no knowledge of it. By the end of the second century the fourfold Gospel was becoming well established in what we not call Orthodox circles.

Not all Christians in antiquity were converted by the written NT Gospels. This is so plainly evident by Pauline communities. It would have also been nice if Acts could have told us about all these written Gospels from the eyewitnesses that were traveling around and being used to convert people to the faith. Would have been cool for Jim’s to relay that Mark wrote a Gospel at Peter’s behest and converted many with it. Not a shred of evidence for it despite all Luke’s work. Instead his prologue in Luke critiques Mark which he utilized as a source.

Not to mention that not all Christians used these Gospels (e.g. Gospel of the Hebrews, Gospel of Nazarenes et al). Oral tradition and preaching was the norm. The apostles were eyewitnesses to his ministry, not a virgin birth. Whether they knew of it or not is what we are discussing. Well we aren’t discussing it because you are just assuming it is factual and it’s factual most Christians knew it at the time. All I can do is repeatedly ask you why you fee this is the case and hope eventually you might provide the slightest shred of historical evidence for your opinion here.

Your apologetical question: “Why would they die for a lie about the virgin birth?” is fake news.

Vinnie

102

From my OP.

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103

I think I somehow ended up here from a merging of conversations or something. I entered into this discussion from a thread by MaxSeeking. So I’m not sure if I seen your OP thread.

I’ll definitely get those books and read them. Though it will be a while. Sometime early next year.

104

You need to get yourself a synopsis of the four Gospels and read the accounts side by side. It is very illuminating.

Also, you are falling victim to anachronism. What is dishonest 2,000 years ago about giving your Lord and Savior a miraculous birth? One might say it was expected!

If the authors aren’t writing a modern historical biography, there is nothing dishonest in that.

Vinnie

105

No worries. I hope you enjoy them, and benefit.

106

I am trying to tell you that, Vinnie. They came to know him in a number of ways. Not all of them found him as the result of something written. Some did imo. Not all of them found him through the testimony of others, but some did. Some were eyewitnesses. Some knew very little but they were born through his spirit that first appeared on Pentecost. He may have told some of them his birth story. They were magnificent friends. Where is our sanctified imagination these days? They were not conspiring to commit a massive fraud on society to rule the world. Just the opposite. They had been taught the greatest will be the servant of all. I have never read a single story about Pete and the guys negotiating for the best camels or lands, riches, or girlfriends,
We are witness to the most extrordinary thing/event/happening in the history of the world through what they left for us in writing–much of it. You know that. You love this same God/Man. God doesn’t make a lot of appearances here on earth. They were unable to contain themselves. They desperately wanted everyone, Everyone! to know God visited earth–as a human being. In the flesh, He was here, briefly, and through him we can be united with the creator of all things.

What did they ask for in return for their efforts? What did they seek? Communism burst on the scene they desired so much for everyone’s needs to be met. He taught them all about caring for each other. It was unreal those first few days and weeks and months that turned into years.

107

Vinnie, why do you love Jesus?

108

Well these didnt convinced you though did they?

109

He created solidarity between me and God and saved me from myself with his life, deeds, mission and death on the Cross. In the person of Jesus God chose to lower himself, empty himself, face all the same trials we all do, lead an exemplary life and died so that I might learn the depths of His love and see him for his true self. He saved me as he saved the world. Jesus is God’s representative on earth. God in the flesh. How could I not love him? How could I love anything if I do not love Love? Worshiping and loving God, putting His will above mine is as natural as breathing to me. I just wish I did it as much.

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110

Holy Cow, man. How cool is that? You are amazing. It is unreal to know you appreciate him so much. He is worthy. Worthy is the Lamb.
There’s a line in Ben Hur I like.

Judah Ben - Hur : Almost at the moment He died, I heard Him say, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” Esther : Even then. Judah Ben - Hur : Even then. And I felt His voice take the sword out of my hand.

Putting his will above mine seems as cruel, brutal and painful as anything I’ve ever known—almost. Not knowing him is the only thing worse. At times, most of the time these days, his will fits nicely. When he pulled my rear-end out of the bar scene, especially since I’d gotten so healthy from dropping so many deadly habits, my desires for the opposite sex intensified and not in a lustful way. In pure appropriate ways with the desire for closeness and sex extremely, extremely powerful always there–tempered with my genuine love for females because of him and my love for him and the words from Proverbs 3 and 4 which I began to read. I had no idea premarital sex was a no-no for me as a Christian. I knew nothing about commandments. I didn’t know what the word sin meant. But I ached. I’ll tell ya. I hurt like a son of a gun letting go of intimacy with a female and dating. He had other plans for me besides being a playboy. I began to die to my flesh, willingly though in distress lasting at least for 2 and a half eternities. I was beginning to be sanctified.

111

But this very thing has been claimed in a number of different religions and myths. Thus atheists have claimed that Christianity just copied it from these others.

A virgin rollcall might include Romulus and Remus, twin founders of Rome, born of the virgin Rhea Silvia. In ancient Egypt, Ra (the Sun) was born of a virgin mother, Net; Horus was the son of the virgin Isis.

The Phrygo-Roman god, Attis, was born of a virgin, Nana, on December 25. It resonates because he went on to be killed and was resurrected.

In ancient Greece, Dionysos was the son of either the virgin Semele or the virgin Persephone. Persephone was also the virgin mother of Jason. And Plato’s mother, Perictione, was a virgin.

The list goes on. Hinduism, Buddhism and ancient China all have their share of them and none is more or less believable than any other myth, fable or symbol.
From Sydney Morning Herald

As for me, I will only explain why this does not contradict science. But personally I don’t see much reason why it is necessary for Christianity. On the other hand, whether it was a virgin birth or not, what I find impossible to believe is that Jesus had no human biological father. I don’t think the Bible supports such a claim either.

The claim that this is needed to fulfill OT prophecy is dubious. The word in Isaiah 7:14 could just as well refer to young woman rather than virgin. However to take the gospel of Luke seriously… (though it doesn’t actually say she was a virgin the time of Jesus’ birth only that God was involved in the baby being conceived).

Ah!! In that I would have agreed with you! AND I would have pointed out there has been a long tradition in support of universalism in the Christian church among the patriarchs.

I label my own position EPDCT, eternal possibly diminishingly conscious torment. It seems to me that the words of Jesus supports an eternal experience which includes conscious torment, but I also see evidence that sin causes a diminishing of consciousness. I don’t think universalism is impossible, but the stubborn-ness I see in people and their will to torment themselves doesn’t make this seem so likely to me. I certainly don’t believe that God will force His way on people who choose otherwise.

112

Oh, I absolutely believe there will be torment. Mostly self chosen. I also see what you mean about diminishing consciousness. Perhaps the longer you choose torment the less likely you are to choose freedom from it. Some may take an ‘aion’ as the greek says. (Oh, that much misinterpreted word.) But, God has all the qualities needed to wait the most stubborn heart out. It is fundamental to evangelical universalism.

You’re right that He won’t force anyone. When has there been an example of God compelling worship? Automatons are not what God is after. It’s why Rom. 14:11 is such a good proof text for universal reconciliation.

Imagine you’re in hell, and you’re suffering unimaginably. You know you’re there forever, and there is nothing that will ever change that. Ever. Now, how many folks that find themselves in that situation are going to bow their knee to God, and confess that Jesus is Lord? Hope must be introduced if the prophecy is to eventually be fulfilled.

There I go defending my position again.

113

The main reason why I take it as a Virgin birth most likely is because it says Jospeh did not o own her until after Jesus was born.

Matthew 1:25
New American Standard Bible
25 but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he named Him Jesus.

So it seems Jospeh was not the father. When he found out she was pregnant he was going to quietly leave her. But God stopped him saying don’t be afraid to take her as your wife for the child inside of her was conceived of the holy spirit. Then with what scripture says about Jesus being the word made flesh just leads me to seeing why it’s called a miraculous birth. I’m hard pressed to believe she cheated on him with some man, or was raped, and got pregnant with a son called the only begotten son of God.

114

That version is taking considerable liberties with the text. The Greek only says that Joseph did not have sexual relations with her until Jesus was born. BUT verse 23 does use the word virgin in the Greek, so even though it is quoting Is 7:14 which doesn’t explicitly say virgin, the gospel of Matthew is reading it as such.

That does not follow. We now know that conception does not require sexual relations. It only requires fertilization. And Matthew traces the lineage of Jesus through Joseph implying that Joseph is the biological father of Jesus.

I don’t think any such thing follows from the gospel of John. But it does follow from the gospel of Luke which says that Jesus is conceived by the action of the Holy Spirit and “the power of the Most High.”

I am not hard pressed to believe anything, and I have considered those possibilities. But I see no reason not believe what the text says. Which is that Joseph is the biological father, but Jesus was miraculously conceived by the power of God.

In general I can believe in the very unlikely but I don’t believe in magic – not the creation of Adam and Eve as golems of dust and bone and not in the conception of Jesus from DNA produced by magic. Of course, God is spirit not a biological organism.

115

You’ll be missed. Including by Jesus! Those batting for Him are few and far between in evangelicalism
: )

116

Not going anywhere Jesus can’t find me. :grin:

Taking the high road just means I’m not going to react in kind to those who heckle me from the gallery. Doesn’t necessarily mean I’m going away.

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117

Good man. Father forgive.

118

From my perspective Hitler is there and belongs there. Goering, Goebbels, many Nazis, Heyden, Stalin, Pol Pot and the Khemer Rouge, Gotti and Murder Inc, etc.
From the perspective of a perfectly holy God, many, many more.

119

I don’t think it’s taking liberties since it seems
To say what you and I both said.

The text says, Jospeh did not sleep with her until Jesus was born. I guess God could have somehow transferred Jospehs sperm to Mary.

Though it does not seem out of the ordinary for a son in law to take on his step fathers lineage.

120

Not in a serious presentation of the gospel, I should have clarified that. Of course, people make up all kinds of wild nonsense. Every day, all over the world. But the gospels were anything but light, fictional stories. They were the exact opposite. All boys 2 years old and younger were murdered because of Christ’s birth. They weren’t at liberty to make up fantasies about it, regardless. Nothing, nothing at all, was more important to these zealots than telling the story of Christ’s life and death and resurrection.