@Relates
This sounds like a strawman that Grudem used to make his point of view sound reasonable. The should be considered as a cheap trick that must be disregarded. It has no place in this conversation.<
I donât think so Roger. His statement, as I understand it, was not part of any âargumentâ per se. Just a straight forward statement of the fact as part of his general theological discourse and nothing to do with the ESS debate. This statement as above is quite reasonable and fully in line with received orthodoxy. I must follow that up by saying I donât fall in line with Grudem regarding his earlier position regarding ESS from which I gather he may be now distancing himself. Even though I believe Grudem to have been wrong in this, I donât think of him as someone resorting to âcheap tricksâ.
Futhermore, as this is a conversation that is taking place between many sensible Christians, I would take it that no one individual can speak as to what âhasâ or âhas notâ 'a place in this conversation. Unless, that is you can claim to speak for everyone. I donât see that from what I have read so far.
The fact that the Son, Jesus Christ, is the visible Image of the invisible Father means that the Incarnation in no way makes Him in any significant way inferior to the Father. The Incarnation does not make Jesus Who is God, fully God And fully Human, less than God, because God does not change, but makes humans able to become one with God the Father by being born again through the Holy Spirit of Love. It does not bring God down to our level, but lifts us up to Godâs level through the Spirit.<
You must realise that when I say that Jesusâ nature regarding His humanity as being inferior to that of the Fatherâs divinity is only by way of quoting the received orthodoxy of the Athanasian Creed.
This is what it states in cold clear terms. No one has said that Jesus Himself is less than God. Not that I am aware of. The incarnation should be thought of as âadditionâ rather than âsubtractionâ. As I said earlier the Son âtook upâ humanity.
What is in need of qualification, is that Jesus is both human and divine. One person with two distinct natures. We cannot go around purely stating that âJesus is Godâ and leave it at that. This is only the half truth and not the full picture.
It is very true, as you say, that God does not change and therefore the eternal Son does not change. However, it is the received view of the church that the eternal Son, who does not change, nevertheless- âtook upâ humanity.
Humanity, as we all must know is a ânatureâ that is âlessâ than that of divinity. This does not prevent Jesus from being fully divine. He is both fully divine and fully human, Both needs must be held together although seemingly paradoxical. The fact that Jesus is âboth human and divineâ is a non-equivalence to that of the eternal Son being âfully divine and not at all humanâ.
The fact that the Son, Jesus Christ, is the visible Image of the invisible Father means that the Incarnation in no way makes Him in any significant way inferior to the Father. The Incarnation does not make Jesus Who is God, fully God And fully Human, less than God, because God does not change, but makes humans able to become one with God the Father by being born again through the Holy Spirit of Love. It does not bring God down to our level, but lifts us up to Godâs level through the Spirit.<
We must be very careful when it comes to any claims that humans can become as you say âone with Godâ This could be perceived as being more closer to a New-Age or Gnostic view than that of a thoroughgoing historic Christian position where the âcreatorâ and the âcreatedâ are forever distinct. Your statement could certainly be perceived of as being somewhat eastern or âmysticalâ.
The shocking truth is that it is not only the Son Who is the servant. The Father is also.
The Father did not create the universe for Godâs benefit. God has no need for it. The Father created the universe as a home for you and me. That makes the Father our Servant, working for us for free, because we cannot pay God.<
Yes⌠God did not âneedâ to create the universe, He does not âneedâ anything from outside of himself. We must remember that the universe is the creation of all of the three members of the Godhead- that is Father Son and Spirit. However to say that makes the Father is our servant is a very strange conclusion indeed. Very strange!
I must say that in nearly 50 years of being a Christian believer, have not come across this anywhere.
Conversely, what it does in fact âmakeâ according to what I have read and understood, is that God is absolutely sovereign. That is the sovereign creator to whom all must give an account. There is no servant-hood in this. None that I have ever come across at least.
Let me make something clear here. We live in a Greek dualistic Reality, which is not from God or the Bible. It assumes that the Creation is inferior to God, even though we know that it is Godâs handiwork. It is Good, because God made it. Humans are not sinful because we are human, but because we have rebelled against God. We are what we are because of what we have done, not because we are inferior to God.<
Well, Roger- All I can ask is that you ask yourself whether you are in fact a thoroughgoing Christian or some sort of a gnostic/New-Ager- or a mixture of both. This is how it seems to me in these brief exchanges if I read you right.
Nothing here to do with dualistic Greek concepts. We donât âhave toâ live in a so-called Greek dualistic ârealityâ- not if we donât want to. That is if we read our Bibles right.
We all, as Christians, accept that the universe was created âex-nihiloâ. It is continually upheld by the power of His word i.e. the Logos. If you are making God equal to His creation, then this, I think, you may perhaps need to revisit; perhaps beginning with Romans Ch 1.
God does not want us to be submitted to God, but to love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength. People, who talk about submission to God, are usually also talking about submission to human authority. Do not be deceived.<
Er⌠wellâŚthanks⌠Iâll try not to be deceived. However, I do wonder at this point whether we are reading the same Bible.