Thoughts on spiritual beings?

This!!!

I agree. God let’s people deal with the consequences of their actions.

I don’t think God shoots lasers at people and blow them up. I’ve never said anything to that point.

What I’ve said is that our God is an all consuming fire. That those who are not saved, gets destroyed by God. When Moses was coming into the the glory of God he could not see him face to face. He had to see his back, because it would have killed him.

The picture of the white throne is that mankind comes face to face with God. Those not grafted into eternal life can’t stand in his presence. Without that buffer they are destroyed. The symbolic painting is a lake of fire, they are turned to ashes. Destroyed. If you’re not saved and come face to face with God his very being destroys you and it’s because of your choices. You’ve had every chance to choose life snd choose christ.

So is the general consensus that the angels and fallen angels are actual beings and not just metaphors for human nature even if the exact type and function of the beings are unclear and differ?

Was it intended as a metaphor? Scholars havent said anything about it beign a metaphor though

I don’t think they are just metaphors. I don’t see anyone in here pushing that they are metaphors. That’s why I stated, is there general consensus that they are actual beings, even if the exact nature, function, and freedom of those beings differ.

It seems to me essentially everyone here believes that angels and their counter parts, are in fact some sort of actual being.

For anyone inclined to believe that an evil being is a metaphor, I recommend:

Hostage to the Devil: The Possession and Exorcism of Five Contemporary Americans Paperback – October 1, 1992

Glimpses of the Devil: A Psychiatrist’s Personal Accounts of Possession, Exorcism, and Redemption

I remain uncommitted in this question. I have a strong belief in individual responsibility, which pushes me toward believing angels and demons are ways to describe the good and bad forces we have inside of us, but also believe angels as messengers of God are real. When the angel appeared to Mary, or the angels in appeared to Abraham or to Lot, I think they were real, but not sure we can say they were independent cognizant beings, with a life preceding and following those events. I am good with not knowing, so it doesn’t keep me up nights.

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What verses indicate this though

I don’t think you can make a strong argument from specific verses, as I think ancient people thought of sin and evil as being personified in the form of demons, and would not have understood it as we do, but we can make inferences from some verses that it is our innate desires that are personified in this way, perhaps as seen in this verse in Genesis 4:

7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it.”

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That doesnt draw any connection neither with angels nor demons. As for

Well the New Testament clearly shows otherwise dont you agree?

This is the one thing they aren’t.

I guess for me I’m fairly committed to them being actual beings with a supernatural creation and that they have free will. I am mostly asking to see what all people believe and why scripturally scientifically and if needed I’ll deconstruct my views but I’m thinking unless it’s some new info I am mostly just trying to fine tune counter arguments.

But I believe demons are different from fallen angels. I believe demons are the spirits used in the old testament to deceive mankind by the will of God and are separate beings from the ones that went to war with Michael under satans command after trying to kill the messiah.

Book Of Enoch shares some insight. Protestants dont accept it be we have it. Interesting book full of mystery.

Actually, doesn’t the personification into those entities become more concrete in the New Testament?
In the Genesis verse, it takes the concept of sin, and has it crouching and having desires. Sounds like a demon to me. But, I agree, not definitive. If taken literally, could be a literal demon. If taken figuratively, could be a metaphorical demon.

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But Paul and Jesus himselfs speaks as of sin dwelling withing as. Not that is some demon fighting with a good angel. In never say that i think or makes that connection.

I remember some cartoons like that. Whether when tempted an angel and a devil comes to each shoulder. The one tempting you the other trying ti convince you to turn away

I think there is contextual clues that shows that sin is like ( referring to symbolism taking place) verses the stories used to define the evil spirits and angels thst are given names, stories , nations they rule over, snd stories of war.

And to clarify why I believe the like is implied is because if taken literally , sin is not a choice but a being that moves making it separate from us.

In the cartoon I saw it as a demon and a angels there encouraging a choice where the choice is still righteousness or sin. Not demon or Angel.

The church here also teaches that each one of us has a guardian angel which in cases of sin or extreme indulgences it reminds you what is right and whts wrong. I believe in this as i have witness it to myself.

Even if they are not intended by the writer as a metaphor that doesn’t mean it follows that they are independent beings. The subjective nature of the spiritual provides another option… a belief that takes on a life of its own in our experience of the spiritual. This means that they could well be quite real but our own creation rather than a creation of God.

As I said it above, it only makes sense to me that God would create angels as the most straight-forward way of creating beings other than Himself. Then God assigning one leader of angels to the role of adversary could explain demons as well. What I will not believe in, however much I may enjoy SF&F books and films that entertain such ideas, is this Zoroastrian Enochian idea of a war in heaven and an origin of evil apart from man – that is a god which is too inept and Zeus-like for me to call God. A god of this world or Demiurge, along with the members of Greek, Egyptian, and Viking pantheons will not have my service or worship, and the evil ones (including any rule by fear soul destroying monsters) will only have my enmity no matter how much power and existence they may have.

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Well I guess I think your idea would make a cool sci film as well.

Jude 6-16
New American Standard Bible
6 And angels who did not keep their own domain but abandoned their proper dwelling place, these He has kept in eternal restraints under darkness for the judgment of the great day, 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

8 Yet in the same way these people also, dreaming, defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak abusively of angelic majesties. 9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him an abusive judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 But these people disparage all the things that they do not understand; and all the things that they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have given themselves up to the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. 12 These are the ones who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, like shepherds caring only for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, churning up their own shameful deeds like dirty foam; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of darkness has been reserved forever.

14 It was also about these people that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord has come with many thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” 16 These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage.

Some things to test ideas against scripture with.

  1. In these verses we read that there was angels that abandoned their proper dwelling place and was punished for it. Logically, we see this as an act of free will. Why would god punish someone for doing what he wanted? He may harden hearts, but it’s always a choice. So we either have a god destroying angels for doing his will which is pretty crazy. Or we have a gods who have free will to all the beings in creation and some of these beings chose to disagree and go against what God said to do. Free will.

  2. We see that it says God is coming to convict and pass judgement on the wicked. He executes (carries out ) judgement on the wicked.

  3. We see Jude, an apostle, quote something from a man, a prophet, named Enoch. What is he quoting from? Which book is he quoting from?

Do we have any books concerning mankind snd angels abandoning their proper place being judged by God that was spoke about by Enoch? Why yes we have a book that does just that, and that book has been found with ancient scriptures and is quoted by an apostle.

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2 Chronicles 18:22-25 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

22 Now therefore, behold, the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours, for the Lord has declared disaster against you.”

23 Then Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah approached and struck Micaiah on the cheek; and he said, “How did the Spirit of the Lord pass from me to speak to you?” 24 And Micaiah said, “Behold, you are going to see how on that day when you go from one inner room to another trying to hide yourself.” 25 Then the king of Israel said, “Take Micaiah and return him to Amon the governor of the city, and to Joash the king’s son;

Here we again see some interesting things. God is in a throne room surrounded by his heavenly host, which are his angels. He’s having a conversation not with himself, but just like with humans he is engaging them to be creative in their own ways. We don’t see this crazy god with puppets on his hands but we see Yahweh with his hosts of heaven discussing how to destroy a man. They are all sharing different ideas. Eventually one comes up with an idea that God decided is best. These angels are being portrayed not as avatars but as thinking beings with their own individual thoughts on how to handle something.

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Let’s see if war among angels is or is not in scripture. Maybe it talks about it…

Daniel 10:10-21
New American Standard Bible
Daniel Comforted
10 Then behold, a hand touched me and shook me on my hands and knees. 11 And he said to me, “Daniel, you who are treasured, understand the words that I am about to tell you and stand at your place, for I have now been sent to you.” And when he had spoken this word to me, I stood up trembling. 12 Then he said to me, “Do not be afraid, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart on understanding this and on humbling yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to your words. 13But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was standing in my way for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia. 14 Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the latter days, because the vision pertains to the days still future.”

15 When he had spoken to me according to these words, I turned my face toward the ground and became speechless. 16 And behold, one who resembled a human was touching my lips. Then I opened my mouth and spoke and said to him who was standing before me, “My lord, due to the vision anguish has come upon me, and I have retained no strength. 17 For how can such a servant of my lord talk with such as my lord? As for me, there remains just now no strength in me, nor has any breath been left in me.”

18 Then this one with human appearance touched me again and strengthened me. 19 And he said, “[h]You who are treasured, do not be afraid. Peace be to you; take courage and be courageous!” Now as soon as he spoke to me, I felt strengthened and said, “May my lord speak, for you have strengthened me.” 20 Then he said, “Do you understand why I came to you? But I shall now return to fight against the prince of Persia; so I am leaving, and behold, the prince of Greece is about to come. 21 However, I will tell you what is recorded in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these forces except Michael your prince.

Again in the Bible itself we see some very interesting things. We see that a prophet was praying snd so God sent an Angel to him. Innthe way there the Angel got confronted by another Angel called one of the princes of one of the other nations. Then Michael, the archangel who is called the prince of Israel , came to help him battle. The first Angel left to carry on the message while another price joined in his fight against Michael and the angel was heading back to help. So we see these angels battling one another. They are battling because of independent and contradicting wills.

Which makes sense since we already read that some angels gave up their proper place snd god punished them. But is there any other places showing a war?

Well again from scripture, not other books, we read of an all out war that takes place between Michael and a angel called Satan. They went to war. Satan lost and was cast down. He was angry because he knew his time was short? Why would hostile be short? Well because the devil is eventually cast into the lake of fire.