Thoughts on “paranormal” stuff

That’s vampires. :vampire: :man_vampire: :woman_vampire: :bat:

Haven’t you come across the notions that cults and conspiracy theories often claim to possess exclusive, “secret knowledge” or specialized senses that allow them to perceive an underlying reality, a “truth,” or hidden dangers missed by the public? :wink:

Theories of the paranormal are ultimately up against Occam’s Razor. While science allows there could be some mysterious somethings bumping around in the night, but it’s far more likely to be nothing at all.

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  • Netflix: “Surviving Death”, 6 pisodes.
  • Dr. Mary Neal: “Death is not the final word and it’s not the end. Death is just the physical loss. I know my son is somewhere and I know that I’ll see him again.”

@seamitchell

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Our eyes are electro-chemical devices.

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It is very easy to dismiss Biblical miracles and paranormal as superstition and ignorance. It falls into the same category and conflicts as the creation naratives.
The Bible suggests that there is an ongoing war between good and evil, that may or may not have already been won depending on your view of the passion of Christ. What is clear is that much of this conflict is on a spiritual or non-physical plane.
Clearly we are not on the New Earth or even the last days, so , dismissing the paranormal or non-physical would seem to be folly. The Devil works best in the shaddows, unseen and ignored.
This is not to suggest we obsess about such things, only not to completely ignore or dismiss them.

Richard

My studies of science has shown me that Occam’s Razor is nonsense. Simplicity is irrelevant. All that matters is the evidence, and the complexity of what the evidence shows is extreme. To be sure, we prefer simplicity – and nothing is simpler than “God made it so” and “God says so.” And when we have more than one explanation/model/math which agrees with the evidence then we DO NOT throw everything away but the simplest. We keep them all, for we often find them useful in different circumstances.

The problem with the paranormal is not a lack of simplicity. It is a lack of evidence. But all that lack of evidence means is we have no reasonable basis for expecting other people to agree either way on things where there is no evidence. Science and evidence clearly has limits and neither can say the paranormal and spiritual does not exist. And it is foolish to assume the limits of your experience is the limit of reality itself. BUT reality is not purely objective. Belief has a very real impact on reality. Psychologist are forced to recognize its role in perception. So for me the important question is what purpose does the belief serve? What do we really want to make a part of our reality? God? absolutely. devil and demons? absolutely NOT!

The Bible “suggests” a lot of things to a lot of people. But what does it actually say? Yes it uses warfare metaphors a few times in parables, but an actual war going on between good and evil? Only in Revelation 12 where it speak of a war in heaven. This is the same book which speaks of all kinds of strange beasts and monsters – quite an apt book for people to read into it whatever they want. No thank you.

This is not in the Bible,

Disguises himself as an angel of light? Yes – loves to twist religion to his purpose.

Uses principalities, powers, and rulers of the world? Yes. Again the opposite of working in shadows.

Like a roaring lion? Yes. Nothing quiet or secretive about that.

No. The devil works best by holding your attention and convincing you of his power. I think the devil is all about preying on people’s need to find other things to blame their problems on.

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:smirking_face:

You really expect it to be spelt out for you?

It is not the front man you need to be watching, it is the one pulling the strings in the background.

Richard

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The real front man, God, does not have anyone pulling the strings in the background3. .

The claim I am opposing is this one: You not only need to know and follow God you also need to know and oppose the devil.

Why?

  1. I don’t think we are equipped to oppose the devil. We should be leaving this to God.
  2. In order to use religion to attack other people you need a devil or demons so you can accuse those people of colluding with them. This is especially true of Christianity which has Jesus telling us to love our enemies. But by demonizing other gods and accusing people of working with the devil and demons, Christians have burned people at the stake for being different, disagreeing with them, or even just to steal and murder with the supposed stamp of approval from God on it.
  3. I only see greater harm done by obsessing over the devil and demons. I see more good done by not looking for something to blame but taking responsibility for things ourselves.

I think we need a sanitized Christianity with such convenient means to use it for power and evil removed from it. One where Steven Weinberg’s statement no longer applies: “With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.”

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I think most paranormal claims lack sufficient evidence to be investigated and the ones for which there is enough data to investigate usually turn out to not be paranormal, thus I am skeptical of paranormal claims. That being said, I think there could be processes which are unknown to present-day science which may one day explain some paranormal claims. That is implied in shows like Star Trek where telepathy is just an ability that some species have evolved. I also find it interesting, for example, how a lot of spiritual ideas about the interconnectedness of all things or consciousness of the universe seem to parallel the study of complex systems. Maybe what our ancestors called nature spirits were actually an expression of the distributed intelligence of superorganisms, like ant colonies. Of course there are also a lot fringe ideas in complexity science so you have to be careful and check your sources. Nonetheless, although I generally don’t believe paranormal claims, I don’t reject them from a metaphysical perspective the way some naturalist skeptics might. I also want to avoid arrogantly dismissing ideas that were very important to our pre-scientific ancestors.

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The traumas my kids have been through are awful enough but at least comprehendable to me.

I can’t imagine how one would parent this girl. I certainly would have differently from her own mother. How much of this girls so-called memories have been fed to her, formed for her by her own mother?

No surprise that the girl has had trouble relating to other young people.

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One small question thought: what about when Jesus is tempted? Would this be true events or is it poetry added to the New Testament recordings?

true events.

I never said the devil is not real. I don’t think such a claim is very defensible from the Bible.

What I am challenging is a portrayal of the devil which is not in the Bible, which is more like Zoroastrianism frankly.

I challenge the idea of the devil as an enemy of God and a challenge to God. No. The devil is a servant of God, assigned by God to be our adversary. Why? Because we blamed it for our own mistake.

I think the devil is portrayed with goat like features because he is a scapegoat – a better object of blame than God. We must learn power and responsibility go hand in hand, by assigning the devil blame for our mistakes we give the devil power over us.

Furthermore, I don’t see much pragmatic value in too much focus on the devil and demons. I think it is typically misused to make religion a weapon of battle against other people.

IOW the ultimate goal is to turn away from the devil toward God and thus give the devil no blame, no role, no significance, no attention, and no power because God is the only one we need. Though, of course, the Bible tells us this focus upon God also means we share His interests to stand up for what is right and take care of people in need.

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Terry, I’m not sure why you tagged me on this. I feel like I am missing a point you had hoped I would see.

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But not of the sort that an EMP would bother. :smiling_face_with_sunglasses:

Or at least of reproducible evidence.

Hey, I saw some woman (discretely) flip the kill sword on a chainsaw, which they saw as enough evidence that creepy ghosts were in the woods messing with their tech!

Judgment call, now deleted since posting. Ergo, ignore it.

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