There is no longer any excuse

Faith & Science Conversation
26

Hi Phil, yes and another good program is The Social Dilemna on Netflix. It is true that big media can be strongly biased, and deliberately so. For example, Fox News was openly set up to promote a strongly conservative viewpoint from the get go. But the Social Dilemna talks about how the algorithms optimized to maximize advertising revenue push people into silos to allow greater targeting and focus, and hence return-on-investment for advertisers. This means that bias and the resulting polarization can also be a mere bi-product of a business strategy blindly managed by AI, rather than the intended centerpiece of it as is the case with Fox News (and others).

We all need to put pressure on our leaders to harness these platforms to the benefit of the community as a whole rather than individuals or groups or bottom line results.

It is my view that Christians are being increasingly pushed further to the right into order to bolster the republican vote because over the years, urban growth has greatly favored the democrats and this will continue. By polarizing Christians and demonizing Democrats as atheistic socialists who want to usher in a godless immoral world, the hard right is doing enormous damage to the institutions it claims to defend, chiefly the public trust in the electoral system, and in the fundamental goodness of people. Once trust is lost, then so is truth and then lies are seen as coming from every side in every discussion and all we have is conspiracy theories - this is the tragedy of today’s US polical landscape.

I think concerned Christians should stand up and be counted here. A strong voice needs to be heard that says that it is time for people of good will to resist and to not be led around by the nose by demagogues like Trump or the party political. We need trust to be restored in the political system. It is time for people to vote with their feet when it comes to using facebook and other systems that polarize us, and boycott those media outlets that refuse to go back to good old serious journalism that at least tried to check facts and show a balanced view. We get the systems we get because we fail to do anything about them. I am just saying that people have been successfully set against each other and this has taken everyone’s attention away from what is really important, and that is to listen, to learn, to compromise and to work together. Instead of Churches becoming part of the republican marketing machine, Christians should take back the pulpit and push a broader and much more inclusive message that seeks to unite all people regardless of their faith.

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27

I have a Christian brother who has been caused a lot of stress because of his disapproval of his minister’s active promotion of this abnormal president. My brother is politically conservative but he is in principle against preaching from the pulpit and values the separation of church and state. I’m not a Christian but I think the church can play a valuable role in society. But emphasizing partisan politics is not the way to go.

I strongly agree with you here. Mass genocide to eliminate people who disagree with you is not a viable way forward. We must expect to live in a diverse society and we need to develop sensitivity to what everyone needs to feel included.

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28

Yes and no. The algorithms feed people more of what they already tend to read/view. People aren’t being pushed into silos against their will; they’re being fed more of what they already desire. The cattle follow the trail of food straight into the feedlot where they happily graze night and day.

With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him. – Daniel 11:32

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Hi Jay, a fair point to make, but let’s consider my own experience on the subject of religion. I am an old earther, but in looking at the claims of young earthers I also then saw videos on flat earthers and could not resist watching these - morbid curiosity!. After this I got inundated with content that pushed these views and nothing opposing them. My point is that what I was fed was not based on my beliefs but the opposite of them, but only because I searched them out.

Also, were are not teaching the critical thinking skills that better prepare people for the onslaught of biases they will confront in the world. When people are no longer able to apprehend the world competently, they will either tend toward being naive and therefore gullible, or more fearful and therefore more distrusting. Either way, this primes people to become polarized more readily.

Provided people go out of their way to seek out opposing viewpoints with an open mind, and with sufficiently trained critical faculties, the polarizing potential of these systems will be somewhat reduced. If not, then too much contiguous exposure to one side of any issue can then poison the well to the point where either people do not wish to listen to opposing views, or they interpret those opposing views through the lens of a now firmly entrenched bias. In other words, we are playing with fire here and much more attention needs to be paid to this problem before we burn down the house…

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I’m very sorry to hear that. Speaking strictly as an old man, if opposition continues, you should consider worshipping as a family at home until the scourge passes.

As Amos said, So those who are smart keep their mouths shut, for it is an evil time.

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31

Here’s an old thread of mine on the subject that you might enjoy.

That’s what I said. The AI fed you material based on what you read/viewed, not on your existing beliefs. That’s how a whole bunch of folks were fed QAnon propaganda before they ever heard of it.

Well, you’re talking to a teacher. Every lesson plan I ever constructed was expected to reflect higher-order thinking skills: synthesis, analysis, reason, application, and evaluation. The skills are taught from elementary school onward, but not all absorb the lessons. A lot of where the problem arrives is that youth ministers and Sunday school teachers don’t know a whit about education theory or practice. They teach pat answers that many never question.

Right. It’s called confirmation bias. No one comes to social media a “blank slate.” The habit that most people lack is reading opposing views, as you note.

In America, the house is already a charred cinder.

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The media is about free speech alright, free to make up and say whatever they like. I don’t think much of Trump but I don’t think his criticism of the press is exactly unfounded. One has a right in democracy to be critical of the press as well as anyone else.

Australians are a rebellious lot and that is evident by the measures taken to try and control people. Tell them about the poor bloke in WA, who went out to his girlfriend’s place in the middle of the night defying lockdown for a quickie and got three months jail. And they let him out after a month of media headline coverage all over Australia. And I have also seen claims of 60,000 dollar fines for breaking lockdown rules. Did that happen in the States? No! https://www.9news.com.au/national/coronavirus-jonathan-david-first-man-in-australia-jailed-for-breaking-coronavirus-quarantine/f7fe0497-b5dd-485d-b709-2be67d0cd767

I see a different “difference” between US and Australia. The US has a high profile all over the world, whereas most don’t even know that Australia even exists. So if the Deep State can make a big splash in the big apple then it get to put the wind up everyone everywhere.

I don’t see any madness in Americans protesting. It is their right to do so in a democracy. As for using science, I don’t think the matter is being discussed honestly. But hey, don’t start me on that or there is no end to it.

Your suggestion of people with mental illness being the culprits in mass shootings is highly offensive. This is the psychiatrists line. They have branded everyone mentally ill with a “they are potentially violent” label so they don’t get the empathy they deserve. And that suits the drug industry help plaster up the “Chemical imbalances in the brain theory” which was admitted long ago was fiction by the psychiatrists themselves.

So let’s look at the gun stats.
“Firearms were used to kill 39,773 people last year (i.e. 2019), according to statistics from the Centers for Disease Control (CDC)”
BUT
" Suicide by shooting accounted for 60% of the total, and that’s on the rise too, increasing to almost 24,000 people."
And explained further here: FastStats - Mental Health
Surely you don’t believe that if they are distressed and have a gun they will commit suicide. No. They suicide out of desperation. It is because realistically there is no help. They can’t find a way out of their problems because they don’t have any chemical imbalances in their brain. Instead they have inhumane people in their lives with some agenda. Getting some fun is high on the list of “fun things to do”.
So let’s look at the figures.
An estimated 26% of Americans ages 18 and older – about 1 in 4 adults – suffers from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year. Mental Health Disorder Statistics | Johns Hopkins Medicine

Almost half of all Australians aged 16 to 85 years — 7.3 million people — will experience mental illness at some point in their life. https://www.health.gov.au/health-topics/mental-health

So without actually owning a gun Australians are worse off. And guns are still involved I have been told. You can’t pose a concealed threat to distress someone without this condition. The only difference is that in Australia you can hire the guns together with “a gun holder” or two, at around $50 to $100/ hour. The source? Why corrupt parole officers of course!
We are not better off.
And consider too that we are the cancer capital of the world. You will find in the medical literature that there is over the top evidence for cancer as a nocebo effect and none for the public story of abnormal cells dividing out of control. Here cast your peepers over this paper from the NIH: Tumors as organs: complex tissues that interface with the entire organism - PubMed

Tumors as organs: complex tissues that interface with the entire organism

33

Hi Ani, thanks for your long and well-research post.

I fear I may have inadvertently lit a touch paper here.

The madness I referred to related to putting political division ahead of the need to address a global pandemic in a responsible way in America rather than the horrendous and shambolic way it has been dealt with by Trump, and the support by many church groups to defy mask wearing, and by libertarian groups and hard line right wingers who want to put their personal ‘rights’ to do whatever they like ahead of the needs of others. The issues of personal liberty are important, but those issues can be fought over something else. It is time to rise above these issues and meet the present threat with a united approach.

I think the introduction of the argument about chemical imbalances ( a phrase that I did not use) is irrelevant to my point, as is the overall fatalities due to gunshot, as I was referring to mass shootings only. My comment about mental illness and mass shootings was merely to make the point that whatever causes people to do such acts, it is likely we have the same causes in Australia, but limited access to guns would make it harder to carry out those acts, particular automatic and semi-automatic military grade weapons that can be purchased at Costco and Walmart.

I meant no offence in my comment about mental illness and mass-shootings. I have since read more on this and it seems that the association of mental illness to gun homicides in general is complex and mired in other issues, and there are currently no clear predictive pathways from diagnosis to homicide that can be relied upon, but the correlation between mental illness and specifically mass-shootings is more pronounced although also complex and also involves social alienation, isolation and withdrawal. Again, I made no reference to chemical imbalances in the brain. I know this is a difficult and sensitive topic, and married as I am to a psychologist, I am aware of the many difficult issues faced by sufferers of depression.

I agree that in Australia there are ways you can actually still get access to guns, but this in no way undermines my point about gun control being a good thing, and mass-shootings being extremely rare events here.

The harsh penalties you speak of send a powerful message and made people adhere to the rules and this produced the results we are now benefiting from - almost no virus. So you can criticize all your like about overbearing and over-reaching governments etc, but it worked and now we have our freedoms back!

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34

You don’t see the madness, the real madness. This is about influenza with a little bit of funny business added on. The massive inflammation is being blamed on the virus. Is it the virus when the virus not only is obliterated in the massive inflammation, it is obliterated within the first day or two. A month later when the person dies there is no virus and hasn’t been for weeks. I think people have a right to question the matter. Instead of standing in line, we should be there to help our fellow Americans.

Your comment about mental illness and mass shooting amounted to the mentally ill as “those people”. This would be in the same vein as calling everyone with covid 19 as potentially dangerous if the mass shooters of 2020 tested positive for the coronavirus. You claimed to trust the science. I was pointing out to you that the whole basis that psychiatrists use to diagnose mental illness is pure fiction. They trash a person’s life issues and then claim the fiction so that the person can be drugged and money made.

You said “no clear predictive pathways from diagnosis to homicide that can be relied upon.” This is nothing more than psychiatrists say so. They make up the science, can they be trusted on the claims they make about inhumane people, psychopaths that they white wash?

A person with depression is being abused underhandedly. It that situation is never addressed there is no resolution of the depression. And sure the mass shooter could have depression so what? They may also wear army boots. Should it be said that army boots wearing people are mass shooters because that is effectively what you said. That is what psychiatrists are hoodwinking people into believing.

We don’t have a large number of mass shooting but we still got a lot of other things wrong that point to the same inhumane under-culture here too.

The virus is only some influenza. And what freedom do you imagine? In South Australia 23 confirmed cases with a further seven suspected cases, where infected people showing only minimal symptoms has puts 1.7 million people in severe lockdown. South Australia ordered into six-day lockdown amid coronavirus outbreak - ABC News
Freedom you say, when around two million Australians are out of work and /or lost their livelihoods, their businesses.

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A person that dies of a gunshot wound… Was it really the bullet, if the bullet went out of the body immediately? Surely there are other causes of the death days later.

:roll_eyes:

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36

This argument trivializes the matter and worse than that it robs the person of the ability to take control of their health and overcome the problem.

There is such a thing as the nocebo effect, i.e., a person’s adverse reaction to an idea that is taken to be true. That adverse effect is in the body.
There was evidence in the early chemotherapy drug trials from 1950s to the 1960s where people in the control arm, taking a sugar pill, lost their hair and vomited owing to damage to their gut lining. I learnt about this at university back in the 1970s but I have not seen this information on the net. However I have seen a few doctors refer to it. Dr. Lissa Rankin M.D. was one.

But there is also evidence of the nocebo effect in modern drug trials. Patients taking statins experience similar side effects from dummy pills | Mirage News
and there are plenty more websites to add to this one on this matter. People in the control arm getting the old drug displaying the side effects of the new drug. Yeah, how come?

I am not about telling people not to have medical treatment. If you get a pathogen see a doctor, get an antiviral or antibiotic to help you.

BUT don’t uphold ideas of " bad virus doing damage, doing damage, doing damage" because those ideas do damage. They ignite the immune system into over-drive to clear away damaged cells. There are no damaged cells in this magnitude, so the immune response damages healthy cells. This is the cytokine storms or massive inflammation that costs lives.

Doctors have seen this with and without a virus, with and without a pathogen of any sort, with and without any foreign proteins or other chemicals. Many healthy people die of sepsis.

I have seen some evidence in my own life. When I was very young, about 8 or 9 years old my father had a shop and one of the people he knew and thought of as a friend wanted to buy the shop. My father wouldn’t sell. Then within a short time, a few weeks, my father became sick. The doctor first said he had a respiratory infection then pleurisy then they did a bronchoscopy to see if there was cancer. He was told there were shadows on his lungs from the X-rays but they could find anything positive. Finally after several months of bad health he agreed to sell the shop. As soon as the contracts were signed he regained his health, in about two weeks. I don’t think this was any coincidence since I have seen people experience similar problems since.

The fact of the matter is the body is purpose-driven and not a machine, but it doesn’t serve the pharmaceutical companies Hell they would be at least 10 or 12 billion dollars out of business for the immunosuppressive drugs at least.

The media selling horror stories
and doctors making comments like this:
“This is not a virus that you want to get,” he said. “There are unpredictable effects. There are healthy young people developing clots and strokes.”

Then there is also an inhumane sub-culture taking advantage of the situation. And not only in causing a person to react as to suffer unnecessary inflammation. There are suggestions that the virus could cause cancer. So it is open slather and a lot of profits to be made. And heck, at the end of the day everyone dies, don’t they?

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So you’re blaming all the deaths and all the long haul Covid cases on the victims themselves? Nice. I personally know long haulers who were healthy, happy young people.

Covid deniers have gotten seriously ill and/or died - people who didn’t even believe the disease was real and clearly had no fear of it. So then you’ll say it’s someone thinking fearful thoughts in their life? Ridiculous.

And I’m not sure what your vaccine link has to do with your post? I participated in the Pfizer trial. I’ll happily get either of the mRNA vaccines when they’re available, if I got the placebo in the trial (I suspect I did). Both vaccines have shown, at most, very mild reactions that are normal immune response. Nothing scary. And Pfizer put their own money on the line, not getting government help for the research (they were not part of Operation Warp Speed). Yes, they have a contract to sell the completed vaccine, but that’s only if it is successful in the trials. If it wasn’t successful, they’d be out a ton of money, having already started production of millions of doses.

Your accusations of all the profits to be made is disgusting. This world has a lot of good, hard working, caring doctors and research scientists, doing what they can to help people, and you’re accusing them of wanting to get rich. Just wow.

Please stop spreading your baseless conspiracy theories here.

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38

Who’s blaming the victim. I am about enlightening the victim help them take control of their health, but of course they can only do that if they are humane and the vast majority are. Medical treatments alone are obviously not enough for the 6% with serious problems.

Either you didn’t read my post or you didn’t understand it or you are trying to throw mud for the sake of it. The info is a plenty on the net. There’s no conspiracy anything.

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You have made it very clear on this forum that you don’t believe the basics of Germ Theory. No, it’s not all in your head (or someone else’s head!) if you have complications from Covid. They are legitimate complications from a real virus.

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40

It is amazing the denial of the severity of the outbreak that exists. And while you may disagree with mechanism, surely you agree that the ultimate outcome is horrible, Ani99? The human toll includes the economic suffering, but even that would be lessened if people were willing to take reasonable precautions. I now am up to three people dead of the virus I knew personally, and do not even live in the worst areas afflicted.

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Over a quarter of a million dead. Soon we will have lost as many as died in WWII. If that happens within a year of the first COVID death in this country I wonder if the deniers will still keep their heads in the sand.

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42

Actually, that advice was superseded several months ago. The page your first link goes to was removed months ago; and your second link is to an article dated April 9 (over 7 months ago) that also references the page that was removed long ago.

I googled the Australian government website and found the current advice as of today:

Where there is low community transmission of COVID-19, wearing a mask in the community when you are well is not generally recommended.

However, where there is significant community transmission (as determined by jurisdictional public health authorities), you may choose, or be required to, wear a mask. If physical distancing is difficult to maintain, for example on public transport, covering your face with a mask can provide some extra protection.

Peace,
Chris Falter

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43

The Germ Theory is not wrong. It is incomplete. And enough was known at the time to have stated it better.
A microorganism does cause an infectious disease BUT IF AND ONLY IF THE ANIMAL"S IMMUNE SYSTEM DOES NOT ARREST THE PROBLEM BEFORE IT BECOMES AN INFECTION. Naughty boys Joseph Lister, Robert Koch and Louis Pasteur .

There is no excuse for such an omission because about seventy years earlier Edward Jenner had developed the first vaccine in 1796.

And just to be clear, a vaccine does not give immunity or provide immunity. A vaccine gives the body, the immune system to be precise, the advantage of developing antibodies early given a similar or weakened pathogen. If the immune system is not up to speed, then all the antibodies in the world are as good as a pile of the best ammunition laying idle while the military is out on leave at a time of invasion.

There is no scientific evidence that the massive inflammation is caused by the virus. But suppose that it is maybe you can tell me what selective advantage does a virus have to create massive inflammation when it would itself be obliterated quick smart?

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Absolutely I agree that the outcome is horrible but what is it caused by? We need to, at some point soon, to recognize that there is a massive and growing inhumane subculture in the world today, possible as many as 1.5 billion people. Allowing people to believe that the massive inflammation is the result of the virus only helps these people operate in a more clandestine fashion, it covers their dirty work.
I am not against people taking some precautions. And I am sure you are a conscientious doctor, but for the most part doctors are not doing enough. Doctors are being controlled by big pharma and they need to rally together and take control of their profession. Most doctors as I have seen a decent, genuine people like yourself.

I am deeply saddened when doctors don’t inform people of how badly they can affect their health by upholding thoughts that put their immune system into over-drive. Yes, a nocebo effect. And it is well known. There’s no conspiracy theory here. What does it take to say “have the medical treatment by all means, BUT don’t uphold negative thoughts as you might hear in the media. Trust that your body can handle the situation and your body does better with the medical treatment’s help”. If doctors did this how many lives would have been saved? I would say a huge number. But of course the doctors, under the current system and state of affairs, would lose their medical tickets if they said something like that.

You are talking to an old lady over 70. I haven’t had the flu for fifty years since I was in my early twenties. And I haven’t had any flu shots either, not because I don’t believe that they can help. But if I am well and healthy I don’t think of having any medical procedures. It it ain’t broke, don’t fix it" is a good rule of thumb.

The lockdowns and closed borders have caused more deaths from starvation particularly than the what is attributed to covid 19. Two million Australians are without work, without their businesses and I am sure in America it is worse. Let’s see how things pan out. Who will benefit from this? This is I would say about global capitalism and the play is very dirty. Lives to them don’t matter a scrap.

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Ani,

With particular regards to your comments about ‘the massive inflammation’. I have reviewed the ‘information’ online, and came across a slew of unscientific or pseudo-scientific nonsense, and conspiracy theoretic content that just goes on and on. Most of it is paranoid, shrill and totally ill-informed and clearly has not come as a result of proper real research, or is the product of deliberate misinformation, cherry-picking and distortion of real information.

Frankly, you have provided zero references to real research that demonstrates the veracity of your claims, and no actual evidence to support them. I am not a shill for big pharma, but I am married to Psychologist, and associated with medical people and scientists of various types, and I know that what you are saying is not right.

I think most informed people these days know about the influence of big-pharma, the corruption, the kick-backs, the skewing of the peer review process and filtering of journal articles. Most inquisitive thinking people these days have a healthy skepticism around this. But I think what people are trying to tell you here, is that you are taking this too far. That you are making unsupportable claims, and where there may be a slight possibility of some kernel of truth in some extreme cases such as the nocebo affect which may account for some tiny tiny percentage of cases, you are attempting to give it enormous explanatory power, completely out of kilter with the research on this. You are also implying that everyone is blind or stupid or not prepared to do anything about it, and that therefore this whole COVID-19 situation must be corrupt and the virus is not really responsible, and the condition is misunderstood or mistreated, and this is all driven by big pharma, and we are all blind to all this and you are the lone voice in here he can see the truth. Sorry, but with respect Ani, and given the seriousness of the situation and the loss of life involved, I think you need to pull back a bit, be more responsible with your remarks, and also give other people some credit for having a brain.

After this I am not going to continue responding to you because I do not want to be drawn further into these kinds of debates. I am sure you will come back with all sorts of stuff after this, but I have said all I have to say. Conspiracy theories are causing a lot of problems in the world right now, and I am trying not to give them more oxygen.

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