There is a marvelous¹ and mysterious dynamic relationship between God and ourselves in his providences for his children, if you belong to him, where no one’s free will is violated and we are still responsible for our choices, yet he is manifestly sovereign and in control. So you might think of it as an instantaneous coöperation between Father and child.
If you don’t belong to him and you are not trusting and coöperative (as in obedient), the instantaneous dynamic still exists, but don’t expect the results to be pleasing, now or ever.
¹ That doesn’t mean necessarily easy or fun at the time, but it is always delightful in retrospect.
Klax
(The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)
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He never has, or anything else more than a circle beyond the incarnation. He therefore cannot interfere, by His unchangeable sovereign will. And He cannot know what is indeterminate. And He’s competent either side of the natural.
He can even use our bad choices for ultimate good, although there may likely be near-term consequences that are less than exciting. So it’s better to do the right thing sooner rather than later. (I’m preaching to myself. )
Your bad cboises are already known and predetermined by him tbe moment he created you. How those will affect people is also predetermined and knowm by the almighty.
Since you talked about God interfering with time. Dont some of you believe in miracles?
You are missing the fact that time-based, tensed words (the only kind we have) do not apply to God. He isn’t or doesn’t ‘pre-’ anything. He is the eternal “I AM”, in both the ontological and active senses, the always NOW and PRESENT tense (as well the immanence sense).
Since we have these words we might as well use them
By your argument everything in theology doesnt apply to God . Homoousious for example does not apply to God because its "manmade "“timebased” word. Not a good argument in my humble opinion.
However think about this
You have options x and y . You can only choose one.
In the end both of them brings you to the same path ,you just dont know it.
However God knew (even before he created you) that these choises/options are not preventable by you. He goes ahead and creates you knowing that the free will he gave you to make either choise will lead you to the same predetermined fate God himself knew youd have before you were even a sperm cell. Complex but i hope it makes sense.
We dknt have to agree on everything. Im not even a theist anymore. But i think its good to have a ground based conversation and not trying to bash the other because he has a different view. Of course ive been guilty about this myself.
That doesn’t make any sense at all, sorry. Where did I say anything about manmade, and what does Homoöusion have to do with it? It is not about time, and even if it were involved, that would be another discussion.
I detect two time-based words that do not really apply to God. What it looks like to temporal us is not the total picture when God is included. We have no choice but to think in terms of sequential time and to use tensed words, but you cannot force them onto God.
Maybe the ‘not being able to see the forest for the trees’ idiom might apply, focusing only the sequential time that we experience where we need to understand that God is ‘everywhere’, past, present and future at the same time, instantaneously at all instants like he is with space, omnipresent, instantaneously at all places, not that we can really get our heads around it.
What you are talking about is God as defined by the philosophers, who humans like you and me. The God of the Bible is YHWH, I AM WHO I AM, Who reveals Godself as the God of Love and the Spirit.
Predestination is a dead end. I know who I am, I am a sinner. If my fate is based on my choices, I am without hope. Also if God’s choices are based on human decisions, then God also is not free. God is limited by our sin.
If the God of the philosophers is the God you believe in, the God defined by humans and limited by sin, then that is your choice. I think I AM WHO I AM is a much better choice.
In terms of the time when the Son will return. and He could not return unless Jesus were God. the message of the Return is to be ready because we will not be expecting it. The wisdom of this has been born out by history because when a date certain has been announced, many people have stopped living, instead of living better.
The passage in 2 Peter indicates that there was never a date certain for the Return, but it is up to the Father based on the situation on earth, so the statement of Jesus was accurate and has nothing to do with His divinity.
Well despite all this my view and argument still stands. We cant force nothing on God since he is god. However my speculations of how he might act have ground based arguments as i pointed out above. Telling me that these specualtions are “not true” because we cant really grasp at how God works well is already known
I have yet to find a counter argument to my potision above in this thread. Of course i created it to share our view on it and the majority here disagrees with me and theological fatalism. However they havent provided really any counter arguments (apart from few)
Typical Baptist preaching right there. You guys starting to become like some annoying cults when they knock on your door trying to “set you on the right path”
Lets assume that someone invents a time machine. He jumps to tomorrow and reads from a newspaper that you have saved someone. Then he jumps back. He knows what you will do before you because he read it from tomorrows newspaper. Does his preknowing make your choice to save someone predestination?
The predestined universe is a story that is already written. I don’t see what difference it makes if the story is in the science fiction genre with time travel. It is the author of the story that makes all the decisions about everything that happens in the story – yes it is all predestined. It is certainly demonstrable that authors can write such stories. It is also clear that the characters do not think or say anything unless the author writes that into his story.
The question is whether we live in such a universe or not. I think the fact that we are conscious is sufficient evidence that we do not.
“ Jerusalem , Jerusalem , the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!
Jesus wanted to gather the people together. They refused.
How is that a proof? God knew they woukd refuse. But he went ahead to create them anyway and then shift the blame on them. “Ohhh yeah i lnew from the begining you will refuse ,but i created you anyways because im good(bte its your fault).” See? Not that good of an argument. Sorry not convinced. Still gonna stand by my belief
The ‘nice’ thing about denying free will is that it lets everyone off the hook for anything – it denies any accountability or responsibility. So the person denying free will is free to do whatever they want. Hitler had no choice and should not be accountable, nor child molesters nor serial killers, according to your current belief.
If we are talking about the divine and generally God then yes.
That doesnt mean of course that their actions arent condemned . Just that they didnt had a choise. Sad but thats how it is. Their actions though since are evil by nature are punishable and it should stay that way
So a person cant use the excuse “God made me do it” in a court same goes with the free will predestanation thing
Aren’t you the one arguing against the existence of free will, regardless? Atheist chemical determinists don’t believe in free will, either. It’s a comfortable belief, because it frees you of any responsibility.
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What it looks like to temporal us is not the total picture when God is included. We have no choice but to think in terms of sequential time and to use tensed words, but you cannot force them onto God.