Your last reply was posted while mine was still under construction. Did you ever study poetry in high school?
Where does what you quoted say anything about ‘spirit sons’? Literally, since you want to be literal.
The latter part, obviously.
The Hebrew word translated “idols” in the version you quoted actually means “worthlessness/a worthless thing”. Here is that same word in a few verses…
Job 13:4… You, however, smear me with lies; you are worthless physicians, all of you!
Zechariah 11:17… Woe to the worthless shepherd who abandons the flock…
Jeremiah 14:14… They are prophesying to these people false visions, worthless predictions, and the delusions of their own mind.
That’s not to say that people in the Bible didn’t make man-made idols and temples to represent/honor the real, living gods that they served. And sometimes people even formed an idol and claimed the idol itself was a god…
Isaiah 44:16-17… Half of the wood he burns in the fire; over it he prepares his meal, he roasts his meat and eats his fill… From the rest he makes a god, his idol; he bows down to it and worships. He prays to it and says, “Save me! You are my god!”
(Note: The word translated as “idol” above is a different Hebrew word that actually does refer to a carved image/idol.)
But the majority of times that the Bible is talking about the gods of other nations, the Hebrew word is “worthless” and English translators render it as “idols” - despite the many biblical descriptions of these living gods doing very powerful things - like the gods of Egypt who were able to match the first three of the signs Yahweh did through Moses and Aaron. Manmade idols cannot turn staffs into snakes, water into blood, or produce frogs out of thin air. The gods of Egypt did these things through their priests just as Yahweh did them through His servants Moses and Aaron. And although it isn’t stated explicitly, the gods of Egypt’s inability to carry on matching the signs after the frogs is likely because Yahweh restricted their powers in order to expedite the lesson He was about to give the Egyptians and Israelites about His Most High God status as compared to Egypt’s lesser gods.
So where are all your other gods now?
You’re late to the party. Already addressed this weeks ago. But just for you…
John 17:20-21… My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
So you tell me… Does the above mean that the triune Godhead is about to gain a lot more persons? Or could it be that “I and the Father are one” doesn’t actually mean what you think it does?
Wow, you are a literalist, aren’t you. You don’t think(!) that ‘one’ can be used in more than one sense?
Yahweh Himself told us that no man can see God and live, Richard. Thousands of men saw Jesus. We’re even told that Jesus is the image of the INVISIBLE God. Dude…
John 1:18… No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him .
John wrote that no man has ever seen God AFTER thousands of people had seen Jesus. And he clearly distinguished “God”, whom no man had ever seen, from Jesus, who came in person to declare God to the people. What do you think that means? How can Trinitarians just ignore clear and explicit biblical teachings like this? It truly baffles me.
But you are right that the vast majority of people who believe in the Trinity Doctrine based on the traditions of men won’t be swayed by the hundreds of clear scriptures that clearly refute that tradition.
Nevertheless, I still enjoy sharing those scriptures and remain hopeful that they might help someone to break the chains of that man-made tradition.
You share your understanding of Scripture but do not attempt to see further.
How could God walk on earth if He could not be seen? Clothed in humanity!
Because they do not take it literally! They understand who He was speaking to, what they could see, and what they needed to know. You clearly do not understand any of it! You are just accepting what they saw at face value! The whole point is that it could not be obvious. Mark gives you a clue with his “Do not tell” mantra. Jesus spoke in parable, The Bible is full of metaphors and hyperbolae, and you do not see any of it! Look up the word parable and see it in context in the Old Testament (4 examples) You must see past the obvious. As a certain gameshow host used to say “the clues are there”!
Richard
The word ‘algebra’ does not have to appear in an algebra textbook for it to teach the concepts. Likewise, ‘Trinity’ does not have to appear in the Bible for it to be taught there.
What do you mean by “another”? This is the only one that has been offered up so far. But since I haven’t discussed it with you personally, can you tell me with 100% certainty that “YHWH” even means “I am”? Were you aware that the name given to Moses in Exodus 3:14 could just as easily mean “I will be what I will be”? Click on the footnote…
14God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.h This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
But let’s assume for argument’s sake that we could somehow know that it is most definitely “I am”. And since nobody today says, “I am bless you” after someone sneezes, but we instead ask “God”, “Yahweh”, “the LORD” etc for blessings, let’s use one of those for the “I am” in John 8:58. Ready?
Jesus claimed to know something about Abraham. Good so far?
The Jews tried to rebut Jesus by claiming he couldn’t know anything about Abraham since he wasn’t even 50 years old (and Abraham had long since been dead). Still will me?
Now… how exactly did Jesus refute their claim that he couldn’t have known Abraham because he wasn’t even 50 years old yet?
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Before Abe came into existence, I was already living, thereby refuting your claim that I’m not even 50 years old.
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Before Abe came into existence, GOD!
Do you see it, Dale? Choose any name of YHWH that you want… it still amounts to Jesus saying, “Before Abe… NAME OF GOD!”
Notice that Jesus doesn’t say anything else about God. He doesn’t say, “Before Abe, I was already existing as I AM”, right? He didn’t say, “I am I AM”, right?
And anyone with a lick of common sense can see that in order for Jesus to have been making a claim of BEING “the great I AM”, he would have had to say that last one I listed above. And guess what? If Jesus had said, “Before Abe came into existence, I am I AM” - like he would have had to do for it to be a declaration of being God, you can bet your bottom dollar that every single English translator would properly translate the first present tense “I am” as “I was/I have been” so that it would say, “I have been I AM” and make sense to us in English!!! 
And finally, maybe you can be the one to give a valid answer to the question nobody else has been able to answer… If Jesus claimed to BE God Almighty in 8:58 as you claim, then why wasn’t Jesus charged with blasphemy for claiming to be God? Why was he only charged with claiming to be the Son of God?
But here’s your chance, Dale. The text is: “Before Abraham came into existence, I am.”
What does proclaiming the supposed personal name of God at the end of the statement mean? What is Jesus saying about the God who’s name he just proclaimed?
In addition to “I and the Father are one.”
That’s the whole point. He is timeless and self-existent like God the Father. I’m sorry you don’t get it. Be careful you are not idolizing yourself and your personal translation… or is it your church’s? If the latter, could you tell us which?
Try to do better, Dale. No one will take you seriously if your answer to every scripture that refutes your understanding is, “It’s metaphorical/parable/figurative/poetry”. Try harder. Show me WHY these particular psalms being songs/poetry makes a clear statement about other gods into a statement about something other than other gods. And what is that something other? When David says God created man a little lower than the gods, what is the “poetical meaning” of “the gods”? What is David trying to say God made us a little lower than in reality, Dale?
Now you’re being funny with your irony.
Yes. I believe the Bible is the authority on everything it teaches about.
The correct and honest answer is that you learned it from the scriptures. So I ask again… what do we test the spirits against if not scripture?
Yes… accurate history.
I’m asking you about Psalm 82 in particular right now. Please answer my question directly and honestly. Who are the “sons of the Most High” that Yahweh calls gods in that psalm? What is this “assembly of gods” that Yahweh presides over?
Remember Richard, my claim from the outset was that the Bible teaches us about many different gods, and the Most High God of all the other ones. There cannot be a Most High God if there are not less high gods. There cannot be a God of other gods if there exist no other gods for Him to be the God of.
So you and Dale can claim that the psalms are poetry and not to be trusted if you want, but the psalms are still a part of the Bible, and therefore you should both admit that what I claimed from the outset is true: The Bible does indeed teach about a bunch of different gods - it’s just that Dale and I don’t accept those particular verses as true or real or important or whatever.
Can you say that, Richard? Can you bring yourself to say that the Bible DOES teach about a bunch of different gods, just like I said and you tried to refute?
Why not? What started that?
No, Yahweh is one transliteration of what YHWH may have been pronounced as. Yahweh is a representation (perhaps even dead on) of how God’s personal name sounds out of a human mouth. Lord and Father are titles, not personal names.
Some of it, to be sure. Much of it is direct quotes of God Himself, or of God’s heavenly representatives. But according to Paul, all of it is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching others what is and isn’t true.
I accept the kingdom of God and the teachings of the scriptures as a little child - as per Jesus’ instructions. The “realities” you think burden you are not really realities, Richard. They are just things which contradict scripture that you think you are obligated to believe because “smart people” tell you to believe them.
The Psalms are a very important part of the Bible, but they are still poetry and to be understood as such. Hyper-literal understandings are misconstrued and poorer for it.
We know the other gods are spirit sons of Yahweh from other scriptures, such as Psalm 82. Of course, I’m happy to hear what you think the gods in Ps 8:5 are. Do tell.
They’re not “my” gods. But a third of the other gods are running this world with their leader, Satan. (2 Cor 4:4, Eph 6:12) The other two thirds are in heaven in the presence of their own God, Yahweh. Jesus is one of the latter, and currently sits at the right hand of his and our God in heaven.
Yes, “one” can be used in more than one sense. But you didn’t answer my question, Dale. Do you think the Godhead is about to gain a bunch of other members? Yes or no? If not, then it’s clear that being “one with” another doesn’t have to mean what you think it does in the case of Jesus and the Father, right? And since it doesn’t necessarily mean that, and since we know from direct scripture that our God and Father is also Jesus’ God and Father, and that Jesus is our brother and joint heir of the good things of the Father, it’s fairly obvious that it absolutely doesn’t mean what you thought it did.
What gave you the impression that it did mean what you thought it did? How did you come to that conclusion in the first place, knowing that “one can be used in more than one sense”?