Theologic Musings: How do we reconcile science with Biblical trustworthiness?

“though being in the form of God (or a god - as either is possible from the text and context), did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped…”

That is what the Greek word means, and the teaching is that although Jesus existed in the form of God (or a god) - meaning that he existed as a glorious spirit entity like God and the other angels of God - he didn’t strive to be equal to his own God (as Satan and his followers did), but instead humbled himself and took on a much lower form to do the will of his and our God, Yahweh.

This is the big one. To understand this (and many other verses) you must first forget the age old false teaching that the Bible and the Hebrew culture is strictly monotheistic. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Bible is loaded with many different gods - and one Most High God of all the other gods. These other gods are the spirit sons of Yahweh, and include Jesus, Satan, Michael, Gabriel, Dagon, Molech, Ashteroth, and many others. That in itself is a deep subject, and I’m happy to delve into it if you or anyone else is interested.

But if you already know about the many gods in the Bible, then understanding John 1 is fairly simple. Let me start with the NET Bible, which was produced by 25 Trinitarian scholars and contains some of the best and informative footnotes you can find anywhere. This is how they render John 1:1…

NET Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.

You and I know that the word “fully” isn’t in the Greek text, but their addition of it should be enough to show you that these guys are 100% in the Trinitarian camp.

Here is the beginning of one of their footnotes on 1:1…

3 tn Or “and what God was the Word was.” Colwell’s Rule is often invoked to support the translation of θεός (qeos) as definite (“God”) rather than indefinite (“a god”) here. However, Colwell’s Rule merely permits , but does not demand, that a predicate nominative ahead of an equative verb be translated as definite rather than indefinite. Furthermore, Colwell’s Rule did not deal with a third possibility, that the anarthrous predicate noun may have more of a qualitative nuance when placed ahead of the verb. A definite meaning for the term is reflected in the traditional rendering “the word was God.” From a technical standpoint, though, it is preferable to see a qualitative aspect to anarthrous θεός in John 1:1c (ExSyn 266-69).

The first thing to understand is that “a god” is a perfectly honest possible translation of 1:1c, and that Trinitarians invoke Colwell’s Rule in an attempt to force a definite (the god) translation instead of the more natural indefinite (a god) translation.

Maybe I should point out for those who may not know that the Greek language doesn’t use indefinite articles (a, an) like we do in English. And so any time you see “a” or “an” in the NT, it was added by an English translator so that the statement makes sense to us who speak English.

The Greek language does use definite articles (the). So it is no accident that John used the definite article with god in part b (“the word was with the god”) but omitted it in part c (“and the word was god”). He could have easily said “and the word was the god” if that was what he intended to teach us. He specifically did not do that. And in almost every case in the Bible, anarthrous nouns (ones not preceded by a definite article) are supplied an indefinite article by the translator so that it makes sense to us.

I’ll stop here for now, but my point is that even Trinitarian scholars acknowledge that adding indefinite articles to the Greek text is commonplace throughout the NT, and that “the word was a god” is a perfectly acceptable literal translation of John 1:1c.

Thoughts? Rebuttals?

You suggest that the relationships “mirror without precisely matching” - but it is the same exact wording in both cases. We can all agree that Jesus has a closer relationship with the Father than any one of us, but Jesus also gave us the right to become actual sons of God and joint heirs along with our brother Jesus to all the good things God wishes to bestow upon us.

Is it possible that Jesus being “in” the Father and vice versa has nothing to do with Jesus being God Almighty, but signifies that they are one in purpose and desire? And therefore the disciples being “in” them just signifies the same?

No contradiction at all to, “You shall have no other gods before/above me.”

Genesis 3:5… For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Genesis 3:22… And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil…

Our first teaching that there are many gods comes early in the Bible.

You are confusing the necessary mechanics of being on earth, with the underlying reality. If Jesus was just a man then our salvation comes from man and not God.

Jesus has to be divine for our salvation to be divine. Otherwise he becomes a scapegoat or human sacrifice.

Richard

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It does seem to me that the bible was written originally in a particualr context. However, I do not use only the bible to tell me about God. I follow something that I think is written somewhere in the bible, that the universe that God created tells me something about the Creator. So I try to use both the ancient records of what people believed thousands of years ago and the knowledge about the universe, how wonderfully it was put together, and some of the idiosyncracies of how it works, to find God. I am very greatly impressed, not that God tried to teach quantum mechanics or general relativity to the ancient Jews, but that He inspired writers of that time to write to their audience, in a manner that is still consistent with what we know about the universe today. In a manner where what we know can lead to a deeper understanding of God.
This strikes me as yet another example of how God (including especially Jesus) does come to us humans where we are, presents very many slightly different (and some even more different) views of Himself, with different details of things that are not claimed in the bible to be essential for salvation. It finally is soaking in to me that God didn’t create anything about this world accidently, that this world, as it is, is leading to the results for each of us who love Him that He wants for us. I believe, based on my understanding of the nature of a God who exists outside of the universe He created and a modern understanding of that universe (infinite, without limits; outside of time; and the laws of physics) that He is guiding my path, not so the details of every little thing that I think I want or need, and certainly not preventing any and all problems, trials, or tribulations. I believe His guiding has put together all the good, bad, and indifferent millions of details of my life and my interactions with everyone with whom I come into contact, such that the whole of my life is meeting His purposes for putting me into this world.
The point relevant to your comments above is that I am not using modern science to try to say what the bible meant to ancient people. I am using my understanding of modern science to help me understand what God is trying to tell me today. And there are some aspects of the details of what I am hearing that could not have been known by the ancient Jews; I would claim that these aspects are interesting, and really do help me understand God better, but the very fact that these aspects could not have been known at all times is a clear indication to me that these aspects are not essential for salvation.

These are words put into the mouth of God, not spoken by Him. They are human tradition, like the notion of us being a physical likeness. Human vanity.

Therefore Jesus cannot be a God,neither can the word.

This is not teaching, it is recording the beliefs of the time. People believed in household individual Gods. That does not mean that they actually existed. The whole point of the Bible is to establish the sovereignty of the one God. Baal was believed in but the Bible discredits it. Mentioning it by name does not give it any credence.

There is one God. Do not try and establish anything else, Whether you believe in the Trinity or not, Jesus cannot be a God in His own right, and neither can John be claiming that the word is/was a god either.

Richard

This is a little too simplistic. Absolutely Jews were polytheistic at times. But my understanding is first century Judaism was largely monotheistic. So that seems to be a point of contention or for Jewish scholars to work out. James 2:19: “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.”

Is he arguing Jesus was just a man? I am content to say that somehow God begat a piece of himself before the foundation of the world, the first born Son of his creation. Jesus was in that sense God made flesh. Jesus might not have always been co-eternal with God but is still God incarnate. This makes sense of a lot of scripture.

Can he be arguing that? Personally, I find that very sensible. Jesus being a man or just another prophet is certainly inconsistent with a ton of scripture. Jesus being fully God in every way, a co-eternal singular individual of the Triune Godhead is also not fully consistent will all of scripture.

If we do end up with a trinity, the arguments have to be nuanced and they develop a bit later.

The Nicene Creed says:

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.

Is the part in bold fully compatible with the typical Trinity? There was only God and then there was God who birthed a Son. A being consubstantial with him. My first thought is not so much.

I don’t deny that Jesus both is and was divine. He both is and was deity. I argue from scripture that, although deity, he is not the Most High God who is both his and our God.

Mike,
This seems to me to be improper logic. First, it is obvious to me that the Jews would not make that accusation if they did not have absolute proof that the statement had been made. And even if they had proof, there are many reasons why prosecutors in any culture choose the specific charges, and do not press other charges.
In any case, I believe that Jesus is one with the Father, the “two” bound closer together than I am to me, so the doctrine of the trinity doesn’t bother me. I also know that God is so large, so unlimited, that different partial views of God can appear to be separate entities; whether this has any real meaning is unknowable, but the doctrine of the trinity seems to help some people feel that they understand something about God.
At this point it seems appropriate for me to expand on what I said about all of these tricky doctrinal issues a bit ago: I believe that none of these points about details of religious doctrine are essential for salvation. I also am getting quite convinced that God has a purpose for permitting different theological ideas that are not essential for salvation to be propagated. I believe that some of these different descriptions help some people improve their relationships with God, while those same descriptions (Trinity, for example) are impossible for others to accept. In any case, what it means to me that an issue is not essential for salvation is that you can believe one side, I can believe the other side, and we both can be 100% confident that we are saved. A major example of this kind of issue is the understanding of how to interpret scripture: Does Genesis describe a universe created 6000 years ago, or can the Genesis story of creation be interpreted to be consistent with a universe created billions of years ago in a Big Bang?
I am quite sure that we have different, apparently incompatible beliefs on this subject. Yet I am even more sure that we both are saved.

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Article 2 of the Belgic Confession seems appropriate to the topic:

The confession holds that that wisdom of God can be divined through two books: the Bible and Science. The former reveals abstract, theological truths not reachable by science. The latter reveals the empirical truths of physical reality. Here it is:

“We know Him by two means: First, by the creation, preservation, and government of the universe; which is before our eyes as a most elegant book, wherein all creatures, great and small, are as so many characters leading us to see clearly the invisible things of God, even his everlasting power and divinity, as the apostle Paul says in Romans 1:20. All which things are sufficient to convince men and leave them without excuse. Second, He makes Himself more clearly and fully known to us by His holy and divine Word, that is to say, as far as is necessary for us to know in this life, to His glory and our salvation.”

While I am not reformed, I hold to the principle behind the confession.

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I repeat, how is that different? We can study multiple planets, and all those observations of chemical reactions were in the past.

I don’t understand. Are you saying that Moses was claiming that his own vanity-driven speculation was something God said?

Psalm 8:5… You have made them a little lower than the angels and crowned them with glory and honor.

Hebrews 2:7… You made him a little lower than the angels; You crowned him with glory and honor.

In the original, King David used the Hebrew word “elohim” - gods. In the latter, it is confirmed that David was talking about angels. Why would David identify “angels” as “gods”, Richard?

In scripture, Yahweh is called the Most High God and the God of gods. There cannot logically be a “most high god” if there don’t also exist less high gods. And there cannot logically be a god of gods if there don’t exist other gods for that one god to be the god of.

The point of scripture is to establish Yahweh as the Most High God of all the other gods - not to establish Him as literally the only god in existence.

Paul sums it up very well…

5Truly even if indeed there are those called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, as there are many gods and many lords, 6yet to us there is one God the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we through Him.

There are indeed many gods and many lords.

:+1:

58“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

They attempted to kill him on the spot for - according to you - claiming to be Yahweh. Yet they ended up charging him for claiming to be the son OF God - not God Himself. That’s because Jesus never claimed to be God Himself - but the Son of God who was sent down from heaven to do the will of his and our God, Yahweh. Jesus told us point blank that our God was also his own God. (John 20:17) Jesus even refers to Yahweh as “my God” four different times in Rev 3:12.

I truly appreciate your tone and manner, Jerry, but I believe this is a salvation issue. We are to worship the Creator whom Jesus himself worshiped and prayed to - not any of His creations, including Jesus.

Deuteronomy 4… 15You saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below.

Romans 1:25… They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Jesus is God-incarnate. The Son is the image of the Father. He is our creator (see John 1:1) and was with God in the beginning. The angels worship him (Hebrews 1:6).

The Trinity is not explicitly laid out in scripture but a human Jesus isn’t either. Apologetic exuberance overstates the case and heretical monotheism errs to the opposite extreme.

Different authors have different conceptions of Jesus which is not surprising if Jesus was God incarnate…. God’s first-born Son who lowered himself for our sake.

Passages like Philippians 2 bridge the gap. This is the way to make the most sense of scripture. You say to worship only the creator but John 1 gives that role to Jesus. The Christian church was correct to see Jesus as God incarnate. That is Christianity 101. The Trinity is a much more complex theological doctrine. I’m not fully sold but it’s something I really don’t care about one way or the other. I’d rather say Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three ways God manifests and shows/interacts with us. But I know the Trinity goes beyond that.

Quoting one liners will never convince me of anything. That is not what scripture is for.

For a start Moses is no longer the given author of any let alone all of the Pentateuch. Secondly, Genesis 1-11 is oral tradition. It is neither history nor prophecy, or direct from God… There is no reason for God ever to be plural. Neither does He wander around the earth (unless in the form of Jesus)
You really think God planted a tree of Knowledge and tried to keep it from man by telling him not to eat it? Weeds and birthing pains are curses from God?
You really think God confused humanity by making them speak different languages?
You really think that the rainbow is some bow put in the sky by God?
Yiou really think that you are in the (physical) image of God?

Vanity, vanity, all is vanity…

Richard

"‘What must I do to be saved?’ And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Is this ambiguous?

Jesus was begotten not created.

Richard

Nope – they’re not the same at all. In John 14:9 it isn’t a “historical present”, it’s a Greek idiom for how long something has been happening for a while and is still happening, but in 8:58 it isn’t because the structure isn’t there as it is in 14:9 – it’s a bare present-tense assertion that to be translated as you want would need a completing clause. In 8:58 I can’t think of a way to finish the thought to make “I AM” be part of the same kind of structure as 8:58 except by completely rewriting the verse.

And that He meant “I AM” as indicating He is fully God is evidenced by the Jewish reaction: if He was just saying He had existed since before Abraham, they would have considered Him crazy, but the words He chose were a claim to be divine.

Jerry answers this one later on well enough I won’t bother.

I will just say that your comments on this matter are the sort that typically come from people who don’t actually grasp that other languages aren’t some code that really means thoughts that can be stated in English.

No, you’re reading it though a materialistic, linear, binary, propositional filter – something that was reasonably excusable for Archbishop Ussher but not for anyone today.
Taking it “at face value” when you’re reading a translation is in fact taking it as something it is not. You’re not taking it as a piece of ancient literature that manages to be two different genres at once while also being a polemic that uses the same order of events as the Egyptian creation story, you’re taking it as though it’s a friend’s great-grandfather’s diary of events he lived through, something it isn’t remoptely close to being.

I hope they didn’t come to their conclusions “sola scriptura”, since that is an unbiblical doctrine! But they based it on the Hebrew, nothing else.

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