Theistic Evolution and Miracles


#41

Oh I dunno. It was kind of half-assed. :wink:


(Wookin Panub) #42

This is why I am a reformer. Reformed teaching is needed in Christendom and today’s world. I grew up in a Pentecostal church. Dad and my uncle are pastors. Practically, a good chunk of my relatives are either Pentecostal or have been affected by Pentecostalism. I love my Pentecostal brothers and sisters in Christ, but there is a lot of nonsense in Pentecostalism, and this being one of them.

Pentecostals say, “lay your hands and heal the sick, raise the dead”
i.e. Andrew Womack, who claim that he brought his son back to life.
This would be the miracles we see in the bible. If Andrew Womack were able to perform these miracles as he claims then are only two possibilities

  1. Once authenticated with signs and wonders, he becomes a new apostle, and everything he writes will have to be recorded in the next addition of the New Testament, because he was authenticated in the same manner as the apostles were.

  2. The bible used unsound logic and reason when it states that the apostles were authenticated by these miracles (signs and wonders).
    If Andrew Womack is not an agent of revelation, but can somehow perform these miracles, as he claims, then the evidentiary value of signs and wonders of authenticating an agent of revelation would be null and void.

This is why I do not accept “apostolic succession”.


#43

You left out “having been taught by Jesus”. If I remember my Eusebius correctly having been taught by Jesus was one of the factors that went into deciding if a writing was going to be admitted into the canon.


(Mervin Bitikofer) #44

… not necessarily. Matthew 24:24 tells us …

For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

Your option #2 has a fallacy of the converse: that a statement claiming true apostles will be authenticated by signs and wonders implies its converse: that signs and wonders always indicate the activity of an apostle. The Matthew passage above should help you see your error.

There could also be more options … such as …

  1. That you are using unsound logic and forcing scripture passages to conform to your presuppositions. I’m led to believe that you are a presuppositionalist, after all.

(Wookin Panub) #45

Were the ones taught by Jesus not performing miracles?


(Wookin Panub) #46

Note that it says FALSE. Furthermore, these signs and wonders are false, because only the real signs and wonders can come from God. Only God can defeat death

(2 Thessalonian 2:9-10) “9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.”

Your option #2 has a fallacy of the converse: that a statement claiming true apostles will be authenticated by signs and wonders implies its converse: that signs and wonders always indicate the activity of an apostle. The Matthew passage above should help you see your error.

2 Thessalonian 2:9-10 says they are false signs and wonders.

That you are using unsound logic and forcing scripture passages to conform to your presuppositions.

My logic is following a logical pattern I see in scripture. God’s word does not contradict itself.


(Mervin Bitikofer) #47

yeah … I’m think option #3 is looking most likely so far.


(Wookin Panub) #48

Heh…as long as scripture supports me. You can believe anything you want.


(James McKay) #49

Wookin, take a look at 1 Corinthians 12:1-3:

Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

When someone who is performing signs and wonders is saying “Jesus is Lord,” with every intention of giving glory to Jesus as Lord, would you really insist that those would be false signs and wonders?


(Mervin Bitikofer) #50

Nope. Sorry. I’ve seen you conflating too much of your own falsehood in as scripture. You have a deep credibility hole to emerge from to get to a point where you are accurately handling the truth “as a workman approved”. I choose to stick with the truth of scriptures. May God bless your path to eventually bring you along on that journey as well - I know he will since he is faithful that way.


(Wookin Panub) #51

We ALL have spiritual gifts. Every elect is given a spiritual gift to help further the kingdom of God.

I have a friend and she has the gift of healing. I have never seen anyone who has such a talent in knowing the right things to say, and how to instruct others in helping people who are hurting or grieving.

When someone who is performing signs and wonders is saying “Jesus is Lord,” with every intention of giving glory to Jesus as Lord, would you really insist that those would be false signs and wonders?

Did you not just read that even the elect could be fooled?


(Wookin Panub) #52

Nope. Sorry. I’ve seen you conflating too much of your own falsehood in as scripture. You have a deep credibility hole to emerge from to get to a point where you are accurately handling the truth “as a workman approved”. I choose to stick with the truth of scriptures. May God bless your path to eventually bring you along on that journey as well - I know he will since he is faithful that way.

I came back and refuted you USING SCRIPTURE. You resorted with an ad hominem


(James McKay) #53

Well of course the elect can be fooled Wookin. That’s why we have things such as prosperity preachers with private jets, failed attempts to calculate the date of the Rapture, and people who believe that there were dinosaurs in the Garden of Eden. And yes, there are a lot of flaky things that go on in Pentecostal and Charismatic circles. But all I’m saying is, don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater. Yes, some signs and wonders may be false. But that doesn’t mean that all of them are.


(Wookin Panub) #54

Do you have scripture for this?


(James McKay) #55

Try this: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=false+signs+to+deceive+even+the+elect

Don’t you just love how well Google works as a concordance?


(Wookin Panub) #56

Pretty cool. But I am talking about scripture in helping us discern true miracle workers from false miracle workers, so as not to throw the baby out with the bath water. Do you believe that people can raise the dead? make blind see? make the lame walk?


(James McKay) #58

People? No. God? Yes. But God uses people. The difference is whether they give glory to God for the miracles, or whether they try to take some of it for themselves. Isaiah 42:8: “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols.”

I’ve noticed something over the years. The most spectacular signs and wonders that I’ve seen – people getting out of wheelchairs, blind people seeing etc – have all tended to happen after prayer in small churches and small group settings in out-of-the-way places. On the other hand, it’s things that happen in big meetings by big name preachers that are more likely to be questionable (or even outright faked).

Yes it is a bit ironic, Wookin. You are (a) a Literal Six Day Young Earth Creationist who (I presume) believes that millions of years and evolution are a slippery slope to atheism, and (b) a cessationist. Yet some of the people you are talking to who accept evolution and millions of years are continuationists. Doesn’t that give you a bit of cognitive dissonance? Continuationism is the exact polar opposite of what your slippery slope hypothesis would predict.

It doesn’t give me any cognitive dissonance though. You see, LSDYEC and cessationism both have the same problem: they put their faith in what God was doing in the past. On the other hand, we Pentecostals and Charismatics put our faith in what God is doing today. Isaiah 43:18-19:

“Forget the former things; do not dwell on the past. See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it? I am making a way in the wilderness and streams in the wasteland.

Also, it’s completely incorrect to say that OECs and evolutionary creationists “discount” the Book of Genesis. We just believe that YECs have misunderstood it.


(Wookin Panub) #59

As a theistic evolutionist, you discount the book of Genesis, in which I do not. Do you see the irony in your statement?


(Wookin Panub) #60

There are no miracle healers today, but God does heal today. God heals in spite of people claiming to be faith healers.

Yes it is a bit ironic, Wookin. You are (a) a Literal Six Day Young Earth Creationist who (I presume) believes that millions of years and evolution are a slippery slope to atheism

NO! There are OEC either ignorant (like my family) or knowledgeable like you. It is however, a slippery slope to losing the authority of scripture. I try to be consistent when looking at scripture, and when you question one book (Genesis) will only lead you to question other books of the bible. Tell me that this isn’t true?

they put their faith in what God was doing in the past. On the other hand, we Pentecostals and Charismatics put our faith in what God is doing today.

We do not put our faith in the past. We see God’s work everyday in this world. What we don’t need is signs and wonders to energize us. God’s word energizes us. I swear. I learn something new everyday.

Also, it’s completely incorrect to say that OECs and evolutionary creationists “discount” the Book of Genesis. We just believe that YECs have misunderstood it.

The only way you can prove to me that we misunderstand Genesis, is if your argument has scripture to back it up. It doesn’t. Your evidence for your hypothesis is outside of clearly, plain written scripture. We believe 6 days, because the bible says, “6 days”


(Wookin Panub) #62

The bible does not say that the earth is flat.

The bible does not say that the earth has a dome.

The bible does say, evening and morning first day, evening morning second day day, evening and morning third day, evening and morning fourth day, evening and morning fifth day, even and morning sixth day. It might be just me, but I believe the bible is telling me PLAINLY that these are regular days.

I am saying that when you question an entire book,You have no argument. If you can question, they can question, because you have an inconsistent worldview