The Ultimate Proof of Creation

Perhaps this is not coming across as you meant. If a YEC Christian can profit from the words of an atheist engineer, or atheist physician, why can one not profit from the perspective of an atheist researcher? At minimum, it is good to know the best presentation of the case from the other side.

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What’s your point? That the heavens would tell a lie or be nonsense if you didn’t believe that they were created? Surprise. You don’t have to believe in God to believe in a universe that makes sense.

Point well taken - and tragic it is for YECs (and any of us who engage in similar practices). When anyone pre-filters their educational sources according to the rule: “I’ll listen to and learn from you only if you have first agreed with me”; then I only end up able to learn … what I already ‘knew’. People need to have the results of this tragic ‘educational’ strategy pounded home. That’s why I registered my complaint about it here.

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With an unhealthy dose of political pressure, some arrogance on Galaileo’s part, and obnoxious (and far more arrogant) heretics promoting heliocentrism to contribute.

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My point was and is that non-Christians can tell the truth about physical reality. We were talking about the earth’s elliptical orbit around the sun.

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An objective universe has its being in God, and a subjective universe has its being in…

Whose “we”? T’s, to whom I addressed my comment because he was addressing a YEC or …?

… our Universal Consciousness :grin:

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I subscribe to and confess, publicly and privately, The Apostles Creed, which begins with the First Article: “I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth, …” in whom we live, move, and have our being, as Paul said–quoting words attributed to Epictetus describing the Cretans’ god, Zeus. I believe in an infinite and eternal God the Father Almighty, objectively indistinguishable from an infinite and eternal Cosmos. The difference between me and, IMO, a rational and reasonable agnostic atheist, is that I am quite comfortable being grateful to God the Father, whereas I have difficulty imagining an agnostic atheist being “grateful to” the Cosmos.

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Married bachelors

I understand. “Category confusion” often does lead to confusing some imaginable possibilities with unimaginable impossibilities.

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If a highly respected person whom you’ve had the pleasure to make an acquaintance, and then had opportunity to built an intimate friendship, and in whom you established profound trust. Imagine if this were a 20 year friendship. And then they were accused of a terrible crime. The evidence is overwhelmingly against this person, yet they maintain their innocence to you in private confidentiality. There is nothing you can do either way for their criminal case. Would you believe them?

Maybe yes and maybe no.

But if they out of the blue, told you that they were once a married bachelor, you would have no choice to think they either misunderstood the meaning of their words or they lost their mind.

Atheism is a kind of category confusion.

You have or know of evidence that a guy I met and was acquainted with on-line committed a crime? Sounds like the guy you’re talking about needs a good lawyer. Fortunately, since it’s no crime to think an on-line acquaintance–whom I’ve never spent a minute with in person-- seems knowledgeable, I don’t need a lawyer.
On the other hand, if my on-line acquaintance tried to assure me that he’s an unmarried bachelor, I’d be hard-pressed to take him seriously, even if he was a highly-educated theoretical physicist like, say, Roger Penrose. Neither my acquaintance nor I would need a lawyer.

Next question?

More like impossible to take him seriously, and hard-pressed to take seriously someone who said that atheism isn’t even a possibility.

You pick your on-line acquaintances and I’ll pick mine.
As for being someone who thinks atheism is an unimaginable impossibility, I ain’t one.

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Have you tried the think system?

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Shades of the past remembered, … :laughing:

Think it so, make it so. Simple.

That’s the secular version of “God Said It, I Believe It, that settles It”, isn’t it?

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