The struggle of leaving Young Earth Creationism and a plea to Biologos

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@Dale

@kocheesh

But I can assure you that that the Bible…God’s Word…does not teach us that the earth is fixed in space and not moving.

These indicate otherwise:

11 Bible verses about Earth Being Fixed And Immovable

@kocheesh

Without going into discussion, the word “fixed” in the context of these verses in no way “proves” that the Bible teaches a fixed/immovable earth.

Why not discuss it. We are talking about science and the Bible.

@Christy

@Dale

Why not discuss it. We are talking about science and the Bible.

It would be stupid to make Tom defend the beliefs of Christians he doesn’t agree with, don’t be difficult.

? I wasn’t – I was referring to verses in the Bible that indicate that the earth is immobile, not others’ beliefs.

[beaglelady]

@kocheesh

It is incorrectly being interpreted to say “firm” or “cannot be moved” means “the earth is fixed and immovable in time and space.”

Well then, you obviously are unwilling to accept what the Bible plainly says. You have been led astray by secular science and want to spread false teachings here.

[kocheesh (Tom Kocsis)]

Hi Dale,

I mean no disrespect in my questions and don’t want to be viewed as a troublemaker here.

I first came to Biologos because it was referred to me and I read in the about us statement that one of the core values was “Christ-centered Faith — We embrace the historical Christian faith, upholding the authority and inspiration of the Bible.”

My desire has been only to highlight that authority and inspiration of the Bible.

I’ll leave it at that. Thanks, Tom

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@kocheesh

My desire has been only to highlight that authority and inspiration of the Bible.

You have not succeeded and you have contradicted yourself.

[kocheesh (Tom Kocsis)]

With all due respect, I will disagree with you. I’ll let me previous response speak for itself. Take care

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

My biggest problem with YECism:

@Dale

@donpartain

abstain from every form of evil.

False doctrine combatively and divisively pushed is evil.
 
It is also demeaning of God and contrary to the heart of the first petition in the Lord’s Prayer. (“Hallowed be thy name” – I love you, Lord, and I desire your renown!)

In regards to things about the earth, the sky, other elements of this world, the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, the definite eclipses of the sun and moon, the passage of years and seasons, the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, it should not be surprising that such things can be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian.

Therefore, it is an utterly disgraceful and ruinous thing—and something that should be greatly avoided—if [a non-Christian] hears a Christian speaking like an idiot on these matters and trying to make them accord with Christian writings. When that happens, [the non-Christian] will say that he can’t keep from laughing when he sees how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some singular meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation.

– Augustine

[kocheesh (Tom Kocsis)]

I’ll read thru that blog…thanks

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

? I didn’t cite any blogs.

[kocheesh (Tom Kocsis)]

In your post is had a link to “Did bones actually become fossilized in the sediments of “ancient” epeiric (inland) seas on continents?” which is what I referred to as the blog and also included the quote from Augustine.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

Ah. That is just another forum topic, not actually a ‘blog’. And that one gets rather long and might not be worth your time to slog all the way through it. (I would rather you look at the objective evidence one, at least the early part of it since it’s not short either ; - )

[kocheesh (Tom Kocsis)]

Thanks…I’ll read thru that one in the coming days.

[Klax (The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)]

Further to your *s Tom, they are perfectly orthodox based on the Reformed, Western, literal, ‘plain reading’, historical-grammatical hermeneutic. Somehow the Eastern mindset, i.e. Orthodox, regards the very same texts, used in their hymnody, as allegorical and goes to enormous lengths to deconstruct and reconstruct their meaning based on that Westernly heterodox assumption. Their reconstruction is not damnationist.

A perfect false dichotomy. Rome sits near the pivot with purgatory. A minority in the Reformed West are so horrified with PSA that they incorporate the Orthodox allegorical approach.

But orthodox Reformed, literal minded, plain reading PSA must have YEC with original sin.

None of which relates to God as He is, to transcendence as it is. To the actual meaning of the incarnation-resurrection.

Why would anyone since the Enlightenment want or need to believe in God the cosmic child abuser, child sacrificer?

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

There are several fairly orthodox and Reformed here that do not demand YEC with original sin. And we relate to God as he is and as he relates to us. That could not happen without the actual meaning of the incarnation-resurrection. Take the incarnational George Müller for example. Maybe some others need more skeptical theism.

[Christy (Christy Hemphill)]

It was a gotcha thing. “Look here’s Christians who say they believe the Bible and think kooky stuff. What do you say to that?” He doesn’t have to say anything to that because people believe all kinds of nonsense and use the Bible to justify it. Who cares? The only thing he needs to “answer” for are his own beliefs.

@kocheesh

I mean no disrespect in my questions and don’t want to be viewed as a troublemaker here.

You’re fine, Tom.

The BioLogos organization has a statement of beliefs and all the staff and moderators here subscribe to them. The things that are published on the website have gone through an editorial process and either reflect the position of the organization or ideas they would like to be conversant with. However, this is a discussion forum open to the public, posts are not moderated before they are posted, and anyone with internet access is welcome to throw their two cents in. Some of the participants are not Christian, and those who are represent a very wide swath of belief from many different Christian traditions besides American Evangelical. And some people lack social skills at times. Although many people here will agree with you that the Bible is inspired and authoritative, they may have very different ways of interpreting various passages and applying the truth of the Bible in practice.

[rsewell (RON SEWELL)]

@kocheesh

So that is exactly what is being done to verses like 1 Chronicles 16:30. It is incorrectly being interpreted to say “firm” or “cannot be moved” means “the earth is fixed and immovable in time and space”. You, me and anyone reading this live on this earth and we can say as common sense that we are on solid ground…its firm and not moving. Anyone trying to use this to disbelieve or discredit the Biblical record is seeking something that isn’t there.

But that is just it. The ancient Hebrews did not know the earth rotates and revolves, nor could they be expected to. They had no word for inertia. Their perception was, like yours and mine, that the ground upon which they stood was fixed in the most fixed understanding of fixed, which was honest and true in the spiritual application of their lived experience.

[Randy]

@rsewell

But that is just it. The ancient Hebrews did not know the earth rotates and revolves, nor could they be expected to. They had no word for inertia. Their perception was, like yours and mine, that the ground upon which they stood was fixed in the most fixed understanding of fixed, which was honest and true in the spiritual application of their lived experience.

Yes–as @DOL Dr Lamoureux notes, it was the “science of the day.”
The Bible & Ancient Science: Principles of Interpretation: Lamoureux, Denis O.: 9781951252052: Amazon.com: Books

By the way, welcome, @kocheesh . Your interaction is exemplary and greatly appreciated! God bless. Randy

[DOL (Denis Lamoureux)]

Hi,
If you guys are interested, I’m actually doing a Zoom lecture on my book The Bible & Ancient Science: Principles of Interpretation at Ambrose University.
It’s next Wed at 9 PM Eastern Time.

Here is the link to register:
https://ambrose.edu/event/3568

Here is the Handout:
https://sites.ualberta.ca/~dlamoure/holamoureuxbas.pdf

Pre-Reading from the book (3 main principles):
https://sites.ualberta.ca/~dlamoure/bas467.pdf

[Terry_Sampson]

For kicks, there’s this historical “reference”: Orlando Ferguson’s ‘Flat Earth’ Map.

[Kendel]

Having a Baptist spiritual upbringing, where dancing was shunned or even forbidden, I have no such skills or graces. I see much smarter, wiser and much much more inclusive minds than mine at work here, and with far greater grace than I possess.
I will be content to watch and learn.
As for a demonstration of epistemological strategies, this seems to have fallen into your lap.
@CuriousBatman can see just what you had mentioned, in the works now.
“Your *s”?

[marta]

@Terry_Sampson

‘Flat Earth’ Map

Looks more concave/convex to me lol
Wait! Do I see on a stick coming out of the north pole?