The struggle of leaving Young Earth Creationism and a plea to Biologos

Even if that’s so, the reading would have value. But I don’t think it’s opposed to Paul’s thought because he commonly restates a collective truth as singular, and in Romans he already made the case for human creation and sinfulness in plural terms before he recasts it in relation to “one man.”

If Paul took Adam as only being a literal man, it would be similar to how he assumes a three-tiered cosmology (such as “in heaven and on earth and under the earth”). We can keep the message while shading his words to fit our own cosmology.

But I think it’s more likely Paul understood Adam as both the first man and all humanity. That was the traditional view, and until Augustine nobody seemed fussed to show how both could be literally true at the same time. (Augustine’s creative solution – that every human lived in some real way in the first man’s privates – hasn’t aged well.) So I expect our culture has more of an issue with Adam being humanity than Paul.

Also, Paul loved to restate a shared experience or truth in singular terms to stress its unity. All our baptisms are the “one baptism”; all that Christ offers is our “one hope.” All believers are Christ’s bride, or members of his body, or stones that form one temple. Even if Paul isn’t doing something similar in Romans 5, it’s not because this way of speaking was foreign to him.

But I do think there’s good reason to see him doing that in Romans – as long as we don’t treat the second half of chapter 5 as the start of the letter. In Romans 1, Paul discusses creation and fall without mention of Adam, Eve, a serpent or a tree of knowledge. But while Eden’s symbols are missing, the story is the same. God creates the world and is revealed to humanity (1:20). Humans feign wisdom while actually turning from their creator to follow another creature in rebellion (1:22–25). They know this warrants their death (1:32). Eden is retold as the story of humanity, not just one couple.

Romans 2–3 shows the problem isn’t merely people back then or gentiles or Greeks – the problem is simply people. Those given advantages, such as the Jews, didn’t fare better. “There is no one who is righteous,” Paul concludes, “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (3:10, 23). Then, Romans 4 discusses heredity in a discussion of Abraham: we show our true ancestry by who we follow, not who we’re born to (4:11–12, 16).

This context informs Paul’s talk about Adam in chapter 5. The Adam paragraph isn’t about showing we’re all created by God or all sinners or all need a saviour – that’s all been done. Instead, Paul restates earlier themes in the language of ancestry. Just as he discussed active faith in terms of being Abraham’s children, now he restates our universal sinfulness as what makes us Adam’s children. By sinning we join ourselves to Adam, allowing the one man’s trespass to condemn us all, allowing death to exercise dominion throughout Adam – throughout humanity. Ancestry language blurs into identification language; being “from Adam” blurs into being “in Adam,” just as Paul says explicitly in 1 Corinthians 15.

I think it’s because Paul had a layered understanding of Adam that he could use him in different ways, sometimes as a person distinct from Eve and sometimes collapsing the couple into one, sometimes to speak of ancestry through imitation and other times of identity. Had Paul just viewed Adam as the first man, I don’t think he would have been so free with him.

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Your whole post is so good, @Marshall, but this phrase stood out to me as something I had not realized. Sinfulness makes us Adam’s children, rather than being a child of Adam makes us sinful.

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The basin was flooded from 15,000 years ago. The Jewish myth is not even a third of that far back. It is so refined, so Axial, so modern, more like a sixth. Adam and Eve homologues don’t exist in any literature before that. Not in the Enūma Eliš or the Eridu Genesis. No interpretation can make Genesis 1-3 fit nature, science. I thought you were a scientist? It’s not a matter of interpretation. That is entirely a linguistic matter. The consilience of linguistics, geology, anthropology, genetics exclude ancient Jewish culture or any pre-Jewish ones knowing anything about an actual Adam and Eve.

PS A little bird has told me that I am not dealing with a grizzled old warrior like myself, which is how I imagined you, or even a mere post-doctoral polymath trying vainly to square the circles of science and faith. Your expertise in palaeomalacology is as amateur as Basil Brown’s archaeology, or as he would have it, ‘excavation’. It is the amateurship of the true amateur, of an Olympic world record breaking gold medallist. You only have yourself to blame for my regarding you as a Yale man. When are you going?

So, Mr. Campbell, don’t imagine I am going to give you any quarter whatsoever. I expect you to bring what you bring to palaeomalacology to all areas of enquiry in our little amateur tutor group.

It’s not reasonable in the slightest. Sorry, by what criteria of reasonable is it? Why do you accept it as possible? In what way? In what realm? The possibility that it is so, if it were so, is absolute zero. Less. The possibility that if it were so it could be so is as high as you and that man Swamidass like. I’m sure you appreciate the difference. So why do you blur it?

Because it is blurred. We see through a veil. If you believe the Bible as true, and science as our best way to see reality as we know it, then it is a possibility. If you do not accept the Bible as truth, then your opinion may differ.

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I admire your tempered iron Phil. The Bible is not true, cannot be true, apart from its extremely limited historicity and the yearned possibility of its ultimate, Ringworld Fist-of-God, Yggdrasil world tree, 2010 Lucifer, New Jerusalem, overarching Excession claim of God made flesh.

This is rather more than simply yearning.
What about it?

Don’t you want it to be true? I do. (I know you do). But nothing else, nothing that the Incarnation Himself believed about Himself and His culture can be. Nothing Paul or anybody else says about ‘Scripture’ has anything to do with God is He is.

I stake much of my life on it being true. Who knows? Maybe I will eventually have to stake all of it on it being true. But martyrdom is no proof of anything but the martyr’s commitment to belief.

But are we stuck with nothing more than yearning?
Even if our views of scripture are different?

I think this assertion is missing some support, sir.

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Thanks. That is very useful. You should write a book!

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I’m glad it helped! I know it was a long response to a short quote by you, but I was also giving the response on Paul I’d promised to @kocheesh earlier. And thanks, @jpm, for distilling it to a tl;dr!

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Some beliefs are true and to die for. One is, anyway. (Actually it’s the Person who is to die for, isn’t it, and to embrace sooner. ; - )

He’s got the project outlined very well right here!

Actually, @Marshall I agree with Peter, that your post was helpful. Thanks for the time and thought you put into it.

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A rhetorical question, but how so? How do you stake much of your life on it being true? I’m staking much of mine on Jesus’ ethos being true, regardless of what He was. Aren’t you doing the same? How much less of your life would be staked if He was not God incarnate? And wouldn’t you stake your life against fascism regardless of there being an afterlife or not? Against a crime on the street against a child? There are plenty of martyrs for good against evil.

We can make up any meaning we like, and our yearning may actually be met after death. I’m intrigued by what different views of scripture can still elicit the question that precedes that. You know my view. It is either entirely natural or entirely natural in reaction to the Incarnation and other manifestations of the Spirit.

I’m afraid that science, nature needs no assertion beyond itself. Does not have to refute any others. If the Incarnation is true, then it happened in fiction. All culture is fiction. Story. There is nothing pre-Incarnate of God as He is in a thousand years of Canaanite-Jewish oral fiction gelled in text five hundred years before the Incarnation. Nothing prophetic. None of that denies the Incarnation. The Incarnation is the act of true excession in fiction, the rock striking the feet of the human image, the story, the system of the world. Babylon. The Beast. The proposition of the Incarnation was known by Jesus. Believed by Jesus. From Mary’s lap. He knew what He was. God incarnate. Even if He was not. Even if He doubted it. Which He did. And if He doubted that, then He certainly doubted the fiction in shattering cognitive dissonance in that moment. If not many before. It is the assertion of the Incarnation that needs support. And the only support we will have till we die is the yearning.

At least in part. I know many statements and a little of the why. Particularly in regard to the all-natural All and the Old Testament.

Plenty remains unclear to me, and not for lack of trying. However, I’ve tried and failed to comprehend other thing. There’s not always a clear cause for that failure. So I won’t speculate now.

If you’ve explained the development of your conclusion here, and precisely what you mean, I’ve either missed or forgotten it. I’ll blame both realities of my increasing age and ever more horrible vision.

Am I right that you are saying that Mary taught Jesus from infancy that he was God incarnate? If not, please correct my understanding, but, please go further, in explaining what led you to this conclusion?

What has convinced you of Jesus’ own doubt that he is God incarnate?

What gives you certainty of what Jesus did or did not know about himself and to what degree he had certainty of that knowledge or lack of it?

Maybe, but how did we get to this “if”?

So, I still wonder about this.

A valuable question for reflection. I would hope so, but I’d also be a fool to think I am somehow morally above the good citizens of the towns of Dachau or Mauthausen or towns neighboring Warsaw or Auschwitz. Among my few remainng books from Germany, I keep my tour books and historic photo collections handy on the bookshelf right behind me. As a reminder.
At work I dredge up the heinous: eugenics, state mental institutions, the reform schools, the Native American boarding schools, racial oppression and revolution. I have a pretty good idea what moral people can believe in and support.

I also have a pretty good idea what level of self-loathing people are willing to live with to save their own hides or just protect their own comfort.

I know I am compliant by nature, more malleable than I should be. I see both sides of issues too easily.
I am good at blending in when I need to.
I am persuadable.
Fallible.

Edited later:
This. This won’t leave me alone.

Is it?
As in metanarrative?
I’m afraid I’m about to start arguing against something you didn’t mean, or I”ve only half understood. So, I’ll ask, what do you mean by: All culture is fiction?

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OK, what of culture - like YEC and Evangelicalism and stochastic terrorism - for example - is not made up? Can you give me any example at all in all of culture that is not artefactual?

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The fault is entirely mine.

And yes, Mary will have told Jesus everything, otherwise how would He have known? Being fully human? Their intimacy was complete as Cana shows. He doubted it with His penultimate saying on the Cross. He certainly doubted the text that He believed prophesied Him. He doubted its interpretations. He doubted Moses. He transcended its interpretations. Doubt was integral to His faith. He was a highly intelligent man, He will have kicked His own tyres.

I allow Holy Spirit teach me

Thanks for clarifying.

Any time ma’am. His epistemology wasn’t ours and He appeared to truly believe that He saw Himself in the prophets. He was wrong for the right reason if He was God incarnate: He isn’t there, but He was still Messiah. But He did play very fast and loose with Moses.

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