The struggle of leaving Young Earth Creationism and a plea to Biologos

I’d forgotten about that – yes, that is a good index, and the rebuttals to specific YEC arguments can be found here:

If I remember correctly, some responses were not necessarily from a Christian perspective (or at least didn’t seem that way to me at the time), but it was still a good starting point for me since I’d absorbed a lot of the more extreme arguments from Kent Hovind.

Definitely. Especially being homeschooled and having all of my education filtered through YEC (which might in itself qualify me as hyper aggressive fundamentalist :wink: ). And a lot of it is mental too – we would still sometimes go to museums or watch secular documentaries, but had just become so conditioned to ignore or mentally replace words like “millions” or “billions,” which is probably why some still get physical responses to that even after changing their mind.

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Unfortunately the Bible is not a scientific manuscript and should not be used as one. It is a 3,000 year old narrative that describes Gods relationship with his highest creation, mankind.
For me the “creation story” can be summed up in the first four words of Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning GOD”

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Good luck @CuriousBatman.

PS we can deal with any pseudoscientific catechism here, but that just generates infinite tennis matches, some more crazed than others. It’s best, as in infinitely better, to deal with pseudoscience as a whole. With epistemology. Are you up for that?

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Thankfully my acceptance of biological evolution didn’t involve any trauma or PTSD like that (I had already been an OEC for quite a while).

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Unfortunately the first 80% of the Bible is a 3,000 year old narrative that describes humankind’s relationship with its highest creation, God.
There is no beginning, no end of beginnings.

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There’s an infinite regress of cats and fleas, too.

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You may want to make sure @CuriousBatman grasps what you have in mind by “dealing with pseudoscience with epistemology” first. Or @CuriousBatman may wish to clarify. It’s best for one to thoroughly understand what one is signing up for.

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I would like to encourage you to continue your commitment to gracious and civil dialogue about the Christian Faith and Science. It stands in contrast to some organizations (you will know the ones I’m talking about) that level unkind, and sometimes laughable, accusations against BioLogos. I believe that people see this and take notice and see your witness to who Jesus Christ is.

If anyone is interested, here is my experience: I didn’t grow up in the church and, while it would have been a good thing to have more of the teachings of Christ at that age, I didn’t have the baggage of the American/Canadian church with respect to YEC. When I came to Christ as a young adult, I joined an evangelical church in Canada. I enjoy fellowship with many Christ- followers to this day. My denomination doesn’t have anything about the age of the earth in its doctrinal statement - just the basic doctrines about God and creation. It seemed like many people I came across were YEC, but it became clear that they hadn’t thought about it deeply.

My education was in Mathematics/Computer Science, and I had little background in Biology. When I came to Christ, my head was in a different space, so I too didn’t think very much about YEC, and I just tacitly accepted it to be a “part of the group”.

One day, a representative of a YEC organization (I’m not absolutely sure which one) came and spoke at my church in a Sunday service. I may not have thought much about YEC, but I recognized pseudo-science when I saw it. As far as I can tell, my rejection of YEC began that day.

When I retired from my career, I started reading about Natural History with the wonderful essays of the late Stephen Jay Gould. (While Gould may have called himself an agnostic, he was not anti-Christian, like some others that are easy to spot). I found that I could fairly easily separate evolution, as a well-proven scientific principle of Biology, and “evolutionism” as a worldview. Then, I came across the book “Language of God” by Francis Collins, and I was greatly relieved that I didn’t have to feel conflicted between my scientific background and my nature in Christ. Of course, this led me to this excellent resource.

I think there may be many people in the church that haven’t thought much about YEC, but just accept it to feel a sense of belonging. If the subject comes up, I try to be mindful of where their mind is at. If they aren’t open to accepting an old earth, I just leave the topic, respectfully. I am grateful that my Pastors do not consider YEC to be an essential doctrine of the Christian faith. On the other hand, if people are open to talking about the topic, I am willing to share my sense of awe and wonder at God and His creation, and its majesty over incomprehensible periods of time, as we have learned from many honest Scientists and Natural Historians.

If this helps anyone in their interactions with people with different views on the Natural World, it would make me happy.

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Welcome, and thank you for your story and perspectives!

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Welcome! This sounds like a wonderful, positive way to communicate. Thank you for the good example, as well.

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One way to challenge YECs is by looking at the broader picture of Christian Faith. In the early years of the Christian Faith a heresy arose which we nowadays call Gnosticism. Gnosticism had the belief that a demiurge had created the physical world and that salvation consisted in God saving us from the physical world. This heresy was strongly contested by the Church through the assertion that God was not only the redeemer, but the creator of the physical world. Not only so, but God had used the physical world as a means of speaking through the incarnation of the Son of God. Christian theologians have reflected on this down through the ages. Hugh of St Victor put it very concisely: If God is the Creator, then “Nature is a book written by the finger of God”. This gave rise to the theology of the “Two Books” - the Book of Scripture and the Book of Nature. Against Gnosticism, the Christian Faith asserted that God was the Creator of the physical world and that we could know God through his Creation.

So, one stance against YECs is to affirm that God is the Creator, and that the physical world can be a means of revelation. This is not to say that Nature supplies enough revelation for salvation, but that it may supply a guiding hand in interpreting the Book of Scripture. Where the two books appear to contradict each other, the answer may lie in a misunderstanding of the genre of literature in particular parts of the Bible.

YECs may counter that they accept this, but that science according to them points to YEC. To make this claim, they know deep down that they are clutching at straws, but they have been intimidated by their upbringing. This brings us to the role of peer pressure in our interpretation of reality.

You may have felt the intimidation of living amongst YECs. What you may not have recognized is the way in which your openness to science intimidates them! So, what are your resources? I think your first resource is confidence in your position. Some of your YEC friends are just waiting to break out of the intimidating intellectual prison they are in, and your confidence may help them to become free. You can find resources for your position on this website. You can also find friends for your new position. If possible, take those friends with you when you meet with your YEC friends.

A single book that would specifically answer all your questions is not likely to exist, because everybody approaches the issues with different questions. But even academics find that as they progress through issues, it is journal articles which take them further than books. This website can provide the equivalent of journal articles. And if you don’t see your question posed on this website, be the one to raise it on this website.

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Sorry, but it only communicates, preaches one way, as does Collins, for those not in the same choir echo chamber.

You’d also run out of paper.

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Yep exactly right. In my experience, their intimidation is obvious. YEC is a simple answer to a complex creation. And they don’t like that simplicity challenged.

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I think I’m tracking you, but if there are consensus science answers to the pseudoscience that certainly would help someone leaving YEC. I learned through books, audiobooks, podcast, articles, YouTube, etc. It was great and I enjoy it. Though, I wouldn’t have complained if there was a more comprehensive book countering specific YEC claims with direct answers. And from a Christian perspective.

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BioLogos Publishing, Inc. “run out of paper”? Try digital format or audiobooks instead.

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There are plenty of websites and youtube channels that counter the claims of YEC.

For instance, you might look at the following:

An Index to Creationist Claims

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You can cut hydra heads, twigs all day long. Slay the beast, cut down the tree once and for all.

We just had an ally of Ken Ham come to our church last week. He asked what we should do if we can’t trust the first part of the Bible. The main argument of course is to shore up trust in the Bible, and I have to admit that’s a difficult question. However, it’s not based on trust in fact, but just a need for certainty and simplicity. It’s very hard to break that. Faith in a way in general gravitates towards that. I have to admit that that is what I gravitate towards as well.

The first book I read with answers to YEC claims was this one. It was encouraging.

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So how do you think the beast could be slayed once and for all?

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