My wording could be more clear…reading God’s Word simply changed my worldview on everything including on creation and origins from one that was based on the theories of big bang and evolution to the truth revealed by God that He created as a supernatural event by His decree…He spoke the creation into existence and He created man (men & women) in His image…that’s all in Genesis. And that is the only possible interpretation for the Gospel to make sense:
Adam, as the first man, by his transgression, brought death into the world.
By the plan and purpose of God, Jesus, the second person of the Godhead or Trinity, come into time and space as the God-Man, to live as a man in order to redeem man.
Jesus, as a man, came and lived the sinless life that Adam or any man after him, could not live…and then through His death, died a substitutionary death that satisfied the just penalty that death required.
Jesus, as a man, was raised having conquered sin and death. And thru His resurrection, forgiveness of sin and promise of redeemed life is found in Christ.
This is the Gospel and it only makes sense if Adam was a man…and not an “evolved” man because death came by Adam’s transgression…not before which the theory of evolution relies upon.
If that floats your boat, go with it. But realize that many do not feel the mechanism by which God created defines his creative initiative. Whether by poofing dirt into flesh in an instant or by a long process is irrelevant to the gospel. And our sin separates us from God, whether Adam’s transgression was the act of one historical individual, or representative of mankind’s universal bent made manifest in our own lives and decisions.
It’s not about my boat or anything about me. It’s about what God has revealed in His Word and whether we believe it. Contrary to the origin of man being “irrelevant” to the gospel, it is actually essential. How do you interpret this verse:
Romans 5:12 - Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mankind, because all sinned.
For one to insert an “evolutionary” process being the origin of the “one man” takes far more faith to believe than for us to believe that God the Creator called all things in to existence by His sheer power and purpose and created man in His image…just as Genesis tells us. And again, trying to insert that also goes against the revealed Word telling us that sin and death came thru Adam’s transgression…no death existed before that so any thought of “evolution” being the mechanism is contrary to the Word of God.
So again, not about my boat or your boat or anyone’s boat/feelings…but its about God’s revealed Word.
Thanks,
Tom
Klax
(The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)
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Hi Tom. Have we danced before? This isn’t going to go well. For me. You’re a decent, gracious, sincere chap. That is your gospel and so be it. I am not going to do battle with that. I don’t see how I can go for the trunk of the tree as to do so would be inevitably so destructive all round.
As a smarter, wiser, much more inclusive head than mine (Hi @Kendel!) has said about the importance of the social gospel, it doesn’t matter how we get there. I swim with English charismatic-conservative evangelicals, may of whom would agree completely with your *s, and a lesser number of liberal ones, in aspiring to the social gospel. I couldn’t do it without them.
Many of us here used to be YECs, my old self included, in my youth. God’s very cool creation reveals some irrefutable truths too though, and if they appear to conflict with the Bible, then the interpretation of one or the other or both is in error. A first reading of an English translation of early Genesis can certainly influence a new Christian to think that it is talking about things that are scientific certainty, but are they really, and is that really what is important, as long as we agree on Genesis 1:1
It didn’t take a lot for me to become an OEC, an old-earth creationist, partly because even as a kid I thought that YEC explanations of how there came to be light before the sun was created were stilted, forced and without any solid biblical basis. With some nuclear physics theoretical foundation and practical application behind me after that, I found the variability of radioactive nuclide decay rates that YECism requires for it to be true was a nonstarter, not to mention a variable speed of light.*
I accepted the ID movement’s claims for quite a while, but two things combined to allow me to accept the science of evolution. Learning that evolution could indeed produce complexity was significant. I was under the mistaken impression that it taught that a single mutation in DNA was all it took to produce a morphological change, and I had never heard of neutral drift and the neutral theory of evolution – it wasn’t even a thing when I had biology in seventh grade, and it had not been mentioned in the few university level life science courses I’d taken after that. In the same timeframe as I was learning those things, I had a nephrectomy by which it was brought home to me in a dramatic fashion that God is sovereign over the mutations in DNA. When a Christian molecular biologist said to me,
…the most common mutations, transitions, are not really ‘copying errors’, because the keto-enol transition of the base is driving them and the polymerase is working correctly. So if you’d like, that can be seen as providence more than chance.
That was all it took (in God’s providence ; - ).
*An important verse:
This is what the LORD says: If I have not established my covenant with the day and the night and the fixed laws of heaven and earth… Jeremiah 33:25
In Romans, that is a difficult passage, but he could well be referring to Adam as a literary example. And to highlight in bold a little differently, “…death spread to all mankind, because all sinned.”
These arguments have been made and discussed over and over without any resolution, so you are welcome to your take on things if it helps you in your faith journey.
Okay. Many of us became believers by reading the gospels. How long have you been a believer?
Growth in Christlikeness isn’t growth in scientific or intellectual knowledge. This isn’t news. What does “I am the way, the truth, and the life” mean to you? Speaking for myself, the first thing that comes to mind isn’t something found in textbooks.
I love that reference! Whether it’s figurative or literal, the meaning is that God’s spirit giving life turned dust or determinate matter into self-determining minimes.
Tom, it seems like you’re using “man” in three distinct senses:
“He created man (men & women) in His image”: man refers to people
“Adam, as the first man” and “Jesus, as a man”: man refers to an individual male
“lived the sinless life that Adam or any man after him, could not live”: man refers to any person, male or female
Since you’re comfortable mixing these three meanings, there’s another option to your conclusion. Rather than “This is the Gospel and it only makes sense if Adam was a man,” we can add that it also makes sense if Adam is man – humanity.
If Adam tells us our corporate story, nothing in the gospel message falls out. This isn’t much different than how prophets personified the nation as a man named Judah or a woman named Jerusalem to tell the people their collective story and their current predicament. This reading even stengthens the connection between Adam and ourselves, keeping us from passing the buck to Adam as if he’s to blame for our sin.
Of course this reading also makes room for evolution, but it doesn’t require it. It just sees the purpose of the text elsewhere than foretelling scientific advances.
I think it’s as easy to see Adam/Humanity/our species/everyone as the “one man” as it is to see Jesus’ entire sinless life in submission to God’s plan within “one man’s act [singular] of righteousness” a few verses later. This is even easier because Paul speaks of how we are in Adam or Christ (1 Cor. 15:22), not how we descend from them. The language of descent and inheritance is used elsewhere, but in a way that can work from Jesus as well, not limited by sex and biology.
Thanks for your response. In this kind of forum it is difficult to converse extensively and I’ve already written quite a bit. Science as you wrote is wonderful because we see more and more the majesty and wisdom of God in all He’s created. God has also revealed Himself in His Word and it speaks clearly of His creative power and purpose. We must be careful to not let science and our feeble, ever changing knowledge to make us think we know more or better than what God has revealed to us in His Word.
In multiple places the Bible teaches that the earth is fixed and does not move. But scientists say that the earth does move, turning on its axis and orbiting the sun. What are we supposed to think? What do you think? Do you go with the Bible or with science?
First off, I want to say I appreciate your kindness here in this forum…you were the first to welcome me a few months ago and I honestly do not want to come across as arrogant or disrespectful to you or any one here in this forum.
The Romans passages in chapter 5 are deep and I’ve personally read them many times and have listened to many teachings on them. But God’s Word is also clear and even children can understand the Gospel message and Christ tells us we must be like children to come to Him (Matt 18:3).
Romans 5 tells us that thru the transgression of one man…the first man…Adam…sin, meaning the fallen nature, corruption, depravity and ultimately physical & spiritual death…entered the world and spread to all men because all of humanity was in the loins of Adam. And we see that reality because everyone dies…death has spread to all and we all have the fallen nature & corruption and see that in our sinful lives and in all of society. Romans 5:17-19 clarifies more as we read that “death reigned through the one”, “result was condemnation to all mankind”, “the many were made sinners” all because of the “offense of the one”, “one offense”, “one man’s disobedience”. And all of that is contrasted with the glories of the one Christ who gives “abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness” and “justification of life”. This is the beauty of the Gospel that we have a Lord and Savior who’s perfect life, death and resurrection has made victory over sin & death and salvation to open to all who are descended from Adam.
I offer this not as my take only but simply as an encouragement that God has revealed clearly our origins and nature and His grace and glory in redemption though our great Savior.
Thanks for your comment. I’m an older guy at this point in my life…its been more than a couple of decades since coming to faith in Christ. I think I understand your question and would agree that God’s Word is not filled with detailed scientific/intellectual information because that is not its primary purpose. Has God given us the ability to think & reason and discover all that He has made and to also create from what He has given in creation…yes, absolutely and all of that reveals God’s majesty, power, wisdom and glory. And I agree with you that none of us would have found “I am the way, the truth and the life” in any earthy textbook because it was God who needed to reveal that to us in His word. Christ is the only way to the Father as he was speaking to the disciples in that context when they asked Him ““Lord, we do not know where You are going; how do we know the way?”.
As believers, I appreciate your questions and being able to think and converse through these things in this forum. Blessings, Tom
Thanks for your response and I would agree those are valid and important questions.
I am sure you are aware of common guidelines and methods for interpretation and just as we may read a letter from a friend or any literature for that matter we interpret based on words, context and many other criteria. So we must do that as well when reading these passages where we see “man” or “men” or “mankind”.
To avoid writing too much, I’ll just try and address your question on whether we can take “Adam is man - humanity”. In Genesis, that interpretation does not make sense when we see that Adam had relations with Eve and she bore sons given names…can we interpret that as “humanity” had relations with “humanity” (assuming we interpret Eve as being humanity as well) and bore a son (is that also humanity?)? Does that make any sense? Then we have the genealogies in Gen 5 and Luke 3…can we interpret each person listed by name as an individual person and then when we come to Adam we change and say that means “humanity”? Does that make sense? And finally, when we come to Romans 5, we have “man” mentioned multiple times but with the clarification of “one” or “all”. Romans 5:16-17 are key here…because they don’t use the word for “man” but state clearly that it was the “offense of the one” and “one offense” that plunged mankind into sin & death. How can we interpret those verses as “mankind” being responsible when it clearly speaks of “one” and not many?
I’ll leave it here and again I appreciate your question and hope this is helpful.
I take your point @beaglelady but what comes to mind for me is to ask with which mind they interpret the Bible? Is this part thought to be immune from feebleness and inconstancy from which our science interpreting minds are thought to suffer?
Please can you share those verses…I’m not sure of which places you’re referring to. But I can assure you that that the Bible…God’s Word…does not teach us that the earth is fixed in space and not moving. There are numerous passages speaking of sun, moon, stars, seasons, rising and setting. Did God reveal in His Word the astrophysics behind their movements, etc…no, of course not…He left that for us to discover and to marvel at His power, wisdom and majesty. So what should you think? Believe the Word of God…the Bible…and be a scientist and enjoy science because it reveals God’s handiwork and glory. Here are a couple of great versus to think on:
1 Chronicles 29:11 - “Yours, LORD, is the greatness, the power, the glory, the victory, and the majesty, indeed everything that is in the heavens and on the earth; Yours is the dominion, LORD, and You exalt Yourself as head over all.
Revelation 4:11 “Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”
But I agree with you…His Kingdom come. Blessings, Tom